…The Opium Of The People?

…The Opium Of The People? | B92 Blog http://blog.b92.net/blog/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/ Andrew Beaumont sr http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss rss@b92.net rss@b92.net Blog A-JE! RSS generator v0.3 Sun, 22 Nov 2009 10:52:09 +0000 http://blog.b92.net/user_stuff/avatars/mali/964/6964.jpg Andrew Beaumont http://blog.b92.net/ 50 50 hmm http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#k150351 Sunni Muslim festival of Ashura, so the Americans were busy protecting religious freedom in Karbula. So far as I could tell, neither Timket nor Ashura were being actively observed around here.

Ashura is SHIA Muslim day of mourning for the martyrdom of Husayn Ibn Ali ( nephew of Prophet Muhammad ) who was killed in Karbala. Maybe these events are not actively observed around here but i remember this information from the school days. You were refereeing to this Ashura ( there is Suni Asura as well which is something else and does not have importance for Suni as it has for Shia). Anyway....just for the record.

Why would i read more? Nothing assures me that you will be accurate in your further text about Orthodox Church and Serbs which concerns me.

]]> http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#komentari Sun, 27 Jan 2008 07:40:27 GMT Tiana http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/ Opium http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#k149134 the war-time Belgrade government, led by Serb general Nedic PRESIDED over an operation which saw Belgrade's Jewish population deported to the death camps, earning the Serbian capital the dubious distinction of being declared the first "Juden frei" capital in Nazi Europe.

Hugh, is it really necessary to say that Germans occupied Serbia and that they installed a caretaker government? For instance, what you know as Novi Beograd and Zemun was part of the Independent State of Croatia and that is where the biggest death camp was located. It was the Germans who “presided” over the deportations. Furthermore, Serbia had an insignificant Jewish population. Anti-Semitism was a marginal issue before WW2 and was not the cornerstone of anyone's ideology, even of Ljotic's or Velimirovic's ideologies. Nothing like the Iron Guard movement existed in Serbia.

You and others are making a connection between the Serbians who were caught up in the WW2, with the Serbians who were caught up in the carving up of Yugoslavia and you are claiming that Serbian “fascists” are to blame for both. You are wrong. In both cases the causes were not to be found in some sort of inherent nationalism of the Serbs, but in the wars that were imposed upon Serbs in both cases. It is a fact that Serbs did not PREPARE themselves for wars, as logic would require.

When politically motivated persons join the historical debate at a point in time when political circumstances are such that a nation has to be discredited in order to accommodate other nationalist political processes, then it is quite normal that they will stress only those elements which are of use to their current projects. Serbia and Serbs have been victims long enough because up to the present time there has been a necessity to justify the creation of so many new states on the territory where Serbs live or have lived.

The Serbs about whom I am writing about are a community which has been created by political processes in the past, they are not some “blood and soil” nonsense. They still exist as a community. The current catch phrase at state-building crash courses is that the nation is "an imagined community" and I suppose that is where you come from when you make your point above. But if you start doing to any established nation in Europe the same as you are doing to Serbs and Serbia you will make “fascists” out of much of the population. Nationalism is not contained and found in the genes of an ethnic group, or in its blood or its soil. It is a political process and usually a defense mechanism.

In order to maintain and support all the newly created states which are in many ways connected to Serbs and Serbia (economically, politically, blood relatives, religion, culture, language) you have two choices. One is to cause confrontation and blast us out of existence, and the other is to accept our existence as valid as that of any other nation in Europe – the French, Italian, or Bulgarian, and take our interests into account. Your actions consistently show to us that you have chosen the first option. And your use of terms such a fundamentalism, fascism, blood and soil, show that you want to treat us confrontationally, and consequently you will create corresponding reactions.

There is no need for me to watch your recommended video or to visit Srebrenica, neither do I have to go to Auschwitz or Jasenovac to understand human tragedies. Just watch the photographs of the Hague prisoners in today’s Blic on the internet and have someone translate the text for you. Perhaps you will be able to perceive humanity in prisoner’s faces and stories. You can also follow up on the Slovenian leaked documents about the US instructions for Kosovo. No one in the Global Village has picked up on the story yet. Look to the real movers and shakers of this world for answers and stop victimizing the victims. ]]> http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#komentari Fri, 25 Jan 2008 21:58:58 GMT Vladimir Maričić http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/ Re: Opium for the masses http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#k148507
History is not as clear cut as you would like it to be, in addition to the mass murder of Serbs, gypsies and others at Jasenovac organised by the war-time authorities in Zagreb, the war-time Belgrade government, led by Serb general Nedic presided over an operation which saw Belgrade's Jewish population deported to the death camps, earning the Serbian capital the dubious distinction of being declared the first "Juden frei" capital in Nazi Europe.

The point I am making is that you can't define history in terms of an ethnic group, blood and soil, "historical right to land" etc. because you will find fascists in every country.

You should watch that Skorpions video, and you should visit Srebrenica to understand the gulf between the narrative representatives of church present and actual historical reality.

The word Serbia carries negative connotations for many people in Europe, not because it is part of some great, continuous historical thought, but because of what happened in Bosnia and Kosovo during the 1990s, and the fact that Serbian politicans such as the gravedigger and Kostunica, like the orthodox church, continue to make excuses for that sort of behaviour.

]]> http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#komentari Fri, 25 Jan 2008 10:11:40 GMT Hugh Griffiths http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/ Re: Opium for the masses http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#k148447 http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#komentari Fri, 25 Jan 2008 08:48:07 GMT Vladimir Maričić http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/ Opium for the masses http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#k148083 If you do not recognize Serbophobia as racism that is not strange, neither was slavery considered anti-ethical when the British traded humans for cotton.

Serbophobia has its roots and exact history. It started with the persecution of the so called, schismatics in the Austro-Hungarian Empire and Turkey. Later it bacame endemic among Croat nationalists as a rival national project to the Serbian liberation movement. Later Serbophobia escalated to become Genocide commited by the Ustashi. Around 600,000 Serbs were murdured in the Jasenovac concentration camp and probably around a million in present Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croatia. Communists instituted Serbophobia among Serbs too. Tudjman's revival of Serbophobia in the late 80s and in the 90 was a continuation of this Serbophobic policy. Since the 90s Serbophobia has become widespread in Europe and the USA among the media and politicians. As a result of this, it is now perfectly acceptable to trash anything which is a part of Serbian nation, culture, religion.

Just take a look at this blog. One guy mentioned the case of pedophilia in the Serbian Orthodox Church. That is an unfortunate and a shameful case, and yes there are one or two similar cases. But that does not represent the religion as a whole. Regarding blessing of soldiers -- even in your mother country you have chaplancy in the army and in jails. During a civil war into which people are conscripted not everyone can be considered a criminal or a murdurer. Your insinuation that all Serbian solders are war criminals and murderers is shameful.

Look at another case Mr. Timothy John Byford came to live in Belgrade sometime after WW2 - while at the same time hundred thousands of Serbs were not allowed to return to Communist Yugoslavia or where departing Yugoslavia because of Communist persecution. This Mr. Timothy John Byford was given a very nice job in Belgrade to create a children's TV series. Everything fine, no one in accusing Mr. Byford because he was luckier than many hosts in his country. But the son of this man, a certain Jovan Byford is now a leading Serbophobe and propagandist in Serbia AND England. I am at loss for words about this kind of treachery and ingratitude. If these Englishmen come to Serbia just add insult to the injury then don't expect me to shut up.

As one Scythian said: "My country shames me, but you are a shame to your country." ]]> http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#komentari Thu, 24 Jan 2008 18:22:30 GMT Vladimir Maričić http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/ Re: Opium for the masses. http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#k147911
Vladimir - if you lived in England and demanded that the English abolished the Church of England, that's perfectly okay. We have something called freedom of speech.

You are welcome to say what you like about the Church of England and on the subject of the Royal Family, you'll find many people agreeing with you.

Mind you, the CoE doesn't have such a bad name as the orthodox church in the rest of the Balkans, thanks to the fact that CoE priests haven't been caught on video blessing murderers and war criminals as shown on that Skorpions video. Or excusing genocide in Bosnia.

]]> http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#komentari Thu, 24 Jan 2008 15:28:01 GMT Hugh Griffiths http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/ Re: religion & nationalism http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#k147467 You're right, I did get very angry. The reason being that this question represents exactly the kind of dogmatic thinking that brought misery and death to billions of people in the past, and it enrages me to see that even good people (which I believe you are), intelligent and educated, still get caught in the same trap, thus perpetuating the endless cycle of evil done in the name of One True God. You being a theology scholar makes things a lot clearer; despite my argument that "religion is obsolete", I respect your chosen occupation/lifestyle, and I can understand and identify with people who take that path... to some extent:) Anyway, regardless of what you've been taught, I hope you agree that you should keep your mind open to different ideas and ways of thinking, and you won't take this as preaching:)

You have a problem with epistemology. You say that you know something because you believe in it. Knowing and believing are not synonyms. To know something is not needing to believe in it; to believe in something is not being able to know it. Not only that but, when you believe, you don't need to know; you don't even want to know. To believe, you shouldn't know. Take some time off your curriculum and read "The Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy" - you'll find an episode about a theologian who logically constructs a proof of God's existence. By establishing that God exists, he makes the need to believe in God redundant - you know that God exists, therefore you don't need to believe in God's existence. Since religion and God are based on belief - there is no religion, and there is no God. Frivolous, but it makes sense.
I'm sure there are many honest and virtuous people within the Orthodox Church. The problem is - they're not the ones calling the shots. "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing" - I'm sure you're familiar with the quote.

The most important thing that we all my realize that we are not going to Church because of the clergy but because of God, that way we wont be distracted because of mistakes of individuals.

And the most basic thing you need to realize is that you don't need to go to church to feel close to God. If God prefers a murderer that hangs a cross under the rearview mirror of his BMW to a non-christian whose greatest sins reach as far as vanity or envy, then it is not the God I want to believe in. My religious feeling can be summarized into believing that things appear to happen randomly, but often have a lot more meaning than it could be attributed to pure chance. In other words, that there is a power that takes care to "reap what you saw". I have a problem with reaping what someone else saw, and I believe that turning a blind eye to injustice is a sin.
]]> http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#komentari Thu, 24 Jan 2008 08:56:20 GMT deadbeat http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/ Opium for the masses. http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#k147318

I consider the concepts of both religion and nation to be obsolete.

Sure, I can say that I consider human beings to be obsolete, but that does not mean that human beings do not exist. So I rather deal with realities and facts than utopian wishes.

PLUS

And about "who started first". I do consider it important to know who raped whom, especially if it was the rapist who cried RAPE! It is very unfair when the person who has been raped is also accused of raping the rapist.

The host of this blog is quoting Marx. He is an Englishman who "chose" to live in Serbia where Marxism was applied for 50 years and has moulded the minds of many generations. If I were to live in England I would not have the tenacity to demand that the English abolish the Church of England or their Royalty. I call his behavior Serbophobic because it is irrational.
]]> http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#komentari Thu, 24 Jan 2008 00:18:38 GMT Vladimir Maričić http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/ Re: religion & nationalism http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#k147046

Vladimir Maričić

Ćirković:

You're waaaay too optimistic.
................I guess this is as malignant as any open fascism,
marching in the streets for Himmler's birthday, celebrating war
criminals, etc.

It is better to be optimistic in life than to be a Serbophobe,
Islamophobe, anti-Semite or to hate any other race or nation (as it
seems you do).
How in the world did you come to such a bizarre conclusion that I hate some race or religion??? Those were the attitudes I used as a *negative* example. ]]> http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#komentari Wed, 23 Jan 2008 21:25:52 GMT Milan M. Ćirković http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/ Re: religion & nationalism http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#k146980 http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#komentari Wed, 23 Jan 2008 20:39:35 GMT metanoia http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/ Re: religion & nationalism http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#k146714

metanoia

From you statement it is clear that you have pretty bad opinion about Orthodox Church. Don't forget that church represents community of sinners, therefore the clergymen are also people like you and me, sinful and in constant need for repentance, and they can make mistakes.
What should my opinion be of a church whose (prominent) clergy members are bigger sinners than its followers? Although they may be in a dire need for repentance, they do not seek it - instead, they seek absolution from secular laws and use their influence on the state to obstruct the course of justice and get away with crimes that make a normal human being sick. I won't give examples for this, as they are either very well known criminal deeds (with who knows how many still undisclosed), or commonly recognized and accepted sins among lower ranks of clergy, like greed, vanity, gluttony etc.. Can you give me an example of the opposite - priests who stand out for their virtues, instead of sins; and please, don't make it be Patriarch Pavle. I actually do know of such an example - two young priests from Vranje who wouldn't lie on behalf of Pahomije, and took the side of the abused boys. The church immediately excommunicated them, and used its influence to get the pedophile off the hook. Does that sound like seeking repentance?
Since you got me going, I'll mention other things I know of first hand. Among many other benefits granted to the church, it can import cars with low taxes and customs. Influential members of the clergy misuse this privilege to import cars which are subsequently commercially sold for large profits. Nepotism is also widespread among the Orthodox Church ranks. It wouldn't be that big a deal, if young priests from influential families were exemplars of virtue - but that's not the case. Instead, a lot of them are spoiled, power-crazy brats with money and expensive cars who feel they can't be touched; debauchees and even drug addicts and downright criminals. Yet, it doesn't stop them from advancing in the church ranks ahead of modest and truly virtuous students who don't have the backing of powerful fathers. I stress that this doesn't apply to all, but there are examples I know of first hand.

You said that you are religious, but that has nothing to do with any church, how then you practice your religion?

I practice it by trying to live a decent life, trying not to succumb to dark impulses, not to do harm (to those who don't deserve it - I don't believe in turning the other cheek), not to judge people based on their nationality or religion, by trying to be understanding and help those in need. Of course, I'm far, far away from being a saint, but I don't aspire to be one; still, I'm far less of a sinner than many of the clergy.

How do you know that your practice isn't false?

Are you now, or have you ever been a member of the inquisition? I can't believe there are people in the 21st century capable of asking this? HOW THE F**K DO YOU KNOW YOU WON'T BURN IN MUSLIM HELL? (or whatever equivalent they have) ]]> http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#komentari Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:34:44 GMT deadbeat http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/ Re: religion & nationalism http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#k146565 http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#komentari Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:20:42 GMT metanoia http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/ Re: religion & nationalism http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#k146301 http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#komentari Wed, 23 Jan 2008 11:11:04 GMT deadbeat http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/ Re: religion & nationalism http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#k146281 I don't want to engage in a discussion with you, because we're obviously of such disparate mindsets that it would be futile, to say the least. While you speak in terms of nation and "who started first", I consider the concepts of both religion and nation to be obsolete. In other words, I don't hold religious or national affiliation relevant for evaluating people (including myself) - taking pride in something your countrymen did centuries ago, or having religious doctrine as a guideline for your life is absurd, or just plain stupid (being ashamed of the deeds of one's countrymen is a different thing). I can't take pride in the qualities given at birth: i.e. if one is born intelligent, one has only luck to thank for it. So, the only thing a person can take credit for is personal endeavour - what you do makes you who you are.
Although I said I want no argument with you, your overzealous efforts to discredit me and other participants of this blog compel me to reply to your attempted vivisection of my comment.

Vladimir Maričić
deadbeat said:

the constant clericalization of the state
Is this in the region of mythomania perhaps? Or is this Serbophobia also?

No, it's in the region of living in Serbia, which can often induce Serbophobia. Priests imposing bans on festive rallies, priests in RRA, priests being exempt from taxes and criminal prosecution, priest having a say in matters of state - I'd call that clericalization (or desecularization) of the state. If you want to disregard all that (and much more), there is still a fact that state politics is guided by religious concepts of the past, like sacrifice, "spiritual heritage" and whatnot, instead of rational planning for the future and caring for its citizens.

Serbs are not genuinely religious
A sudden change of mind? Make up your mind deadbeat.

There is a huge difference between being religious, in the sense of honoring the ten commandments and moral standards preached (and seldom practiced) by the church, and practicing religious rituals, which is what Serbs do.

..... clergy should be the predominant force structuring and directing our lives
, Pure imagination! When is the last time a priest structured your life?

Already answered this, but the question makes me wonder if we live in the same country. Do we? I’d appreciate an answer.

majority of Serbs, knowingly or inadvertently, partake in, support or simply tolerate this malignant process - and it drives me crazy.
Generalization. Of the 60% that voted 40% perhaps fits your definition. Is that called a majority? That is just over 25% of the population.

What do voting percentages have to do with this? I’m talking about PEOPLE in the streets, in buses, offices, people on TV and other media. Again, do you live in Serbia? Btw, by dabbling in these percentages, you’ve (unconsciously) admitted that it IS a malignant process.

Is this all about
the feeble mind of an average Serbian voter
?

Yes, it most definitely is.
]]> http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#komentari Wed, 23 Jan 2008 10:53:34 GMT deadbeat http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/ Re: Request http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#k146142 moje je iskustvo da se ljudi doista trude obraćati se strancima na engleskom (s ostalim stranim jezicima je nešto teže). Svuda na Balkanu, i u okviru vlastitih mogućnosti. Eto, znam mnogo primjera stranaca koji su naučili Jezik, nastojali ga svuda koristiti, i bili ponosni na to, a uporno dobijali odgovore na engleskom. Ili, nemali broj puta, ako sam u njihovom prisustvu i ovi (stranci) se obrate nekome na Jeziku, taj netko se obrati meni i kaže: "Recite mu da..." (i tu slijedi odgovor na pitanje). Ali ovo zadnje je već drugi problem.

Ovo, naravno, ne isključuje ono o čemu pišeš i sa čime se u principu slažem. Važno mi je naglasiti princip uzajamnosti.

]]> http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#komentari Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:18:37 GMT dunjica http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/ Re: religion & nationalism http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#k146131 You're waaaay too optimistic. ................I guess this is as malignant as any open fascism, marching in the streets for Himmler's birthday, celebrating war criminals, etc.

It is better to be optimistic in life than to be a Serbophobe, Islamophobe, anti-Semite or to hate any other race or nation (as it seems you do). ]]> http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#komentari Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:07:10 GMT Vladimir Maričić http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/ ??? http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#k146074 National or political disputes based to some extent on religious tradition are hardly unique to the Balkans.

The religion was not and is not driving force behind the conflicts in Balkans. For 50 years people lived without religion, and today most of the religious people just recently ressurected from atheism without having a real grasp of religion they 'believe' in and they take as their own. Religion in nineties came back as an answer to retreat of communism, as a first thing to turn to when people got overwhelmed with crush of belief system they cherished all of their life, together with frightening decline in living standard. So it was not a cause but a consequence.

The disputes among different nationalities ( turks vs serbs, srebs vs croats vs muslims, serbs vs albanians) is of geopolitical not religious character, where every one of Balkan ethnicities try to reach the all-in-one-state target or protect themselves against others trying to reach this goal.

yes serbs,croats, monenegrians and muslims(bosnians) are the same people in root and have different political incl. religios experiences because of historical reasons.Religion might come here as an occasionaly suitable vehicle for firing up some of the masses, that is true. With very shallow understanding of it, unable to put their common origines in perspective they primarily tend to follow not religious leaders but strong ones, devoted to Greater _______ (whatever nation in Balkans) project, even to a disastrous conflict. So, still, it is wrong to assume that religion plays an important role in the, at least recent, history of Balkans.

]]> http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#komentari Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:53:28 GMT Dragan Pavlicevic http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/ Re: Request http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#k146045

dunjica

Mislim da nije pretjerano očekivati od nekoga tko živi u Srbiji da razumije srpski.

Kad bi srpski politicari dali u tome primer, ne bi bio problem... Ali zemlja koja i po zvanicnoj statistici ima 16% nepismenih, a broj ljudi sa znanjem stranih jezika se meri jednocifrenim procentom, ima ITEKAKAV jezicki problem. Druga stvar: ako neko zivi u Srbiji privremeno, zbog posla, kao strucnjak ili diplomata ili trgovac, ne vidim zasto ne bi bilo ne samo gostoljubivo (inace po mom misljenju lazno "tradicionalno gostoljublje"

, vec i lepo da mu se ponekad obratimo i jezikom koji mozda bolje razume, zar ne? Potpuno isto kao sto je lepo da ako znamo da neko bolje vari piletinu nego svinjetinu (sto ne znaci da ovu potonju mora da odbije), kad ga zovemo na veceru, i mi vodimo racuna o tome, ne? ]]> http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#komentari Wed, 23 Jan 2008 04:05:14 GMT Milan M. Ćirković http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/ Re: Request http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#k145671
]]> http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#komentari Tue, 22 Jan 2008 22:17:02 GMT dunjica http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/ Andrew, http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#k145630 Didn't quite get your point - Are you afraid that Serbia IS or WILL BECOME a "fundamentalist" state?

Or the point is hidden somewhere in "...To be honest, if it doesn't, I'm not sure that I'll want to live in a fundamentalist state where political policy is dictated by people whose imagination and insight is constrained by parochial self-interest and by their slavish commitment to distorted and misleading images of past glory. ..."?

A lot, and I emphasize, A LOT of BS you piled up here Andrew. Too many loose adjectives, too few substantiated ideas - for a pragmatic, linear "to do point", factual (I wont say "anglo-saxon-protestant" since I dont know where are you coming from - and will put some wider frame around it...) "western" train of thought.

No hard feelings, but this is bleak.

]]> http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#komentari Tue, 22 Jan 2008 21:50:16 GMT Rasina http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/ Re: religion & nationalism http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#k145623

Vladimir Maričić

pure imagination! When is the last time a priest structured your life?

Just the other day I had to pay "voluntary" tax fee for restauration of Hilandar or building of St. Sabas, or whatever clerical issue. ]]> http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#komentari Tue, 22 Jan 2008 21:41:49 GMT Milan M. Ćirković http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/ Re: religion & nationalism http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#k145619

Vladimir Maričić

Generalization. Of the
60% that voted 40% perhaps fits your definition. Is that called a
majority? That is just over 25% of the population.

You're waaaay too optimistic. First, this is at least 40% of what can be called participating citizenship - and there are many reasons of both theoretical (i.e. developed in political theory) and practical reason to consider only this subset of the total population. Second, you underestimate the power of disguised support (or Milosz' "ketman"

which has been practiced here for centuries - there are many people whom I know who are right now supporting democratic factions, voting for pro-European parties, etc. - but only since their underlying reason is "they [meaning primarily Croats, Bosnians, Albanians] got stronger this time, but we need to wait and prepare, attract money and possibily alliances of great powers - in order to get our revenge later". I guess this is as malignant as any open fascism, marching in the streets for Himmler's birthday, celebrating war criminals, etc. ]]> http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#komentari Tue, 22 Jan 2008 21:37:16 GMT Milan M. Ćirković http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/ Re: Request http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#k145615

vidomir pavlovic

Da li postovi moraju biti ovako dugački i da i je neophodno da budu na
engleskom. Ne verujem da svi blogeri znaju engleski. Primetio sam da
postovi na engleskom obično imaju veoma malo komentatora, što govori
koliko ljudi znaju toliko dobro engleski da bi mogu komentarisati.

Sa izvinjenjem
Pa delimicno se ljudi ustrucavaju ako nisu sigurni bas u svaki zarez, ali delimicno to jeste nas ozbiljniji problem - imamo premalo ljudi sa znanjem svetskih jezika - i treba da *radimo* da to sto pre promenimo!

(Partially, people hesitate if unsure in all language niceties, but it is partially our far more serious problem - we have too few citizens with working knowledge of global languages - and we should working towards changing that circumstance!) ]]> http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#komentari Tue, 22 Jan 2008 21:31:33 GMT Milan M. Ćirković http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/ Re: Quesition of faith and national identi http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#k145554

Sasvim je sigurno da neko ko je Srbin a druge je vere ne gubi svoj nacionalni identitet i tu tom smislu ne postaje Hrvat ili osoba neke druge nacionalnosti. U ovom kontekstu ne vidim kako bi moje mišljenje mogu biti u paraleli filološkom teorijom Jagića.

Identitet se moze izgubiti i promeniti i to se desava stalno. Jedino se poreklo ne gubi osim ako se ne zatre i zaboravi. Nacionalni identiteti su promenljivi jer nacija je vezana za politicku zajednicu ili drzavu. Jagiceva teorija nije samo filoloska nego je i politicka jer on prvo govori o identitu pa onda o jeziku:"Srbi i Hrvati su jedan narod koji se razlikuje po veri. To nije tvrdio Karadzic, on je govorio kao filolog da srpskim jezikom govori jedan narod sa tri konfesije, pritom nije smatrao da su Slovenci, Cakavci, Kajkavci i svi Stokavci Srbi ili srpskog porekla.

Prenaglasavanje religijskog elementa je nepotrebno, nisam primetio da se u ovoj kampanji uopste naglasavaju pitanja religije. ]]> http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#komentari Tue, 22 Jan 2008 20:44:01 GMT Vladimir Maričić http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/ Quesition of faith and national identity http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#k145528 Koliko se secam Hrvatska je bila drzava "Hrvata, Srba i ostalih" . Verovatno se nisu sami Srbi ispisali iz hrvatskog ustava.Mislim da je to bio tezak udarac i neshvatljiv postupak mnogim Srbima u Hrvatskoj osim u kontekstu ustaske srbomrznje. Otud i to nepravedno poistovecivanje Tudjmana i hadezeovskih crnokosuljaskih mitinga sa ustastvom, pravastvom itd. Pa i desekracija ostataka zrtava izvadjenih iz medjugorskih jama je mozda uticala na pojavu srpskog nacionalizma, priznajte barem malo.

metanoia: O PROMENI IDENTITETA:
Interesantni su slucajevi Nikole Tomazea (Niccolo Tomaseo 1802-1874) rodjen u Sibeniku u srpskoj trgovackoj porodici, Skolovao se u Italiji, sahranjen je u Panteonu kao slavni italijanski nacionalni pesnik i knjizevnik.. U poslednjem izdanju svoje knjige "Iskrice" gde god je pisalo "ilirski", "slavenski" ili "jugoslovenski" kao ime jezika, on je promenio u srpski, jer je prihvatio Karadzicevu filolosku teoriju.

Drugi slucaj je Sandor Petefi najveci madjarski pesnik (1823-1849) rodjen od oca Srbina Aleksandra i majke slovakinje, koji je bio madjarski nacionalista. ]]> http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#komentari Tue, 22 Jan 2008 20:30:15 GMT Vladimir Maričić http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/ Re: Quesition of faith and national identi http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#k145391

Vladimir Maričić

dunjica
Vladimire Maričiću,zaboravili ste Nijemce, odmetnuto srpsko pleme. O tome se ozbiljno (hm, kako za koga) pisalo na starom Blogu (šifra/nick: čika Miloje. Ili ste Vi taj?)

draga dunjica,
pojasnite o cemu vi govorite

Na žalost, nije više moguće naći originalnu prepisku/blog, ali evo jednog na kojem se to spominje:
LINK

I pitanje:

Re-emergence of Tudjman's Serbophobia spawned many negative reactions in the Bosnia-Croatia regions in the 90s and led to the wars.

Serbian nationalism comes only as a reaction and a defense against rape already committed by others.

Da li stvarno vjerujete u ovo ili je trebalo biti "samo" provokacija? Iskreno se nadam da je ovo drugo. Iako bi mi bilo najdraže da se manemo djetinjastog natezanja "tko je bio prvi" i crno-bijele slike svijeta.
]]> http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#komentari Tue, 22 Jan 2008 18:40:41 GMT dunjica http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/ Re: Quesition of faith and national identi http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#k145374 http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#komentari Tue, 22 Jan 2008 18:34:28 GMT metanoia http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/ Re: Quesition of faith and national identi http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#k145365

dunjica

Vladimire Maričiću,zaboravili ste Nijemce, odmetnuto srpsko pleme. O tome se ozbiljno (hm, kako za koga) pisalo na starom Blogu (šifra/nick: čika Miloje. Ili ste Vi taj?)

draga dunjica,
pojasnite o cemu vi govorite
]]> http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#komentari Tue, 22 Jan 2008 18:29:56 GMT Vladimir Maričić http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/ Re: Quesition of faith and national identi http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#k145297 zaboravili ste Nijemce, odmetnuto srpsko pleme. O tome se ozbiljno (hm, kako za koga) pisalo na starom Blogu (šifra/nick: čika Miloje. Ili ste Vi taj?) ]]> http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#komentari Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:44:20 GMT dunjica http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/ Re: religion & nationalism http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#k145251

the constant clericalization of the state

Is this in the region of mythomania perhaps? Or is this Serbophobia also?

Serbs are not genuinely religious

A sudden change of mind? Make up your mind deadbeat.

..... clergy should be the predominant force structuring and directing our lives

, Pure imagination! When is the last time a priest structured your life?

majority of Serbs, knowingly or inadvertently, partake in, support or simply tolerate this malignant process - and it drives me crazy.

Generalization. Of the 60% that voted 40% perhaps fits your definition. Is that called a majority? That is just over 25% of the population.

Is this all about

the feeble mind of an average Serbian voter

? ]]> http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#komentari Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:04:04 GMT Vladimir Maričić http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/ Re: Request http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#k145243 I'm not sure that I'll want to live in a fundamentalist state where political policy is dictated by people whose imagination and insight is constrained by parochial self-interest and by their slavish commitment to distorted and misleading images of past glory.

That sounds like Serbophobia to me, with a tinge of paranoia too. What is a fundamentalist state and who is planning to establish it? The Talebans tried it. Good thing NATO was here to free the Afghans and they are also not too far from Belgrade. So I would't be too worried. Besides there are a lot of whistleblowers in Belgrade who will call NATO to the rescue. I suggest that you just relax and don't worry about people

whose imagination and insight is constrained by parochial self-interest and by their slavish commitment to distorted and misleading images of past glory

Could you name a few "parochial self-interests" for the sake of mutual understanding?
]]> http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#komentari Tue, 22 Jan 2008 16:54:04 GMT Vladimir Maričić http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/ Re: religion & nationalism http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#k145241 http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#komentari Tue, 22 Jan 2008 16:49:41 GMT Ana WithAFamilyNameTooHardToPron http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/ Quesition of faith and national identity http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#k145239 Najrasprostranjeniji slucaj u Evropi je da se narod zove po svom jeziku. Drugi slucaj je da se narod zove prema drzavi. Vatroslav Jagic je tvrdio da su Srbi i Hrvati jedan narod, ali da se razlikuju po veri.

Srbi su u 18 veku bili narod bez svoje drzave. Narod koji je odrzavao takozvano svetosavsku tradiciju medjutim nije bio jednoveran. Nemanjici su u svojoj famili imali i pravoslavce i katolike.
Mnogi Srbi su presli na Islam, a drugi u katolicanstvo, moramo uzeti u obzir da je bilo i protestanata i ateista. Dositej Obradovic, Jan Kolar, Jernej Kopitar, Dobrovski, Safarik kao glavni istrazivači tog perioda su postepeno otkrivali da jednim jezikom koji su austrijske vlasti zvali Ilirski, govori veliki broj ljudi koji su se identifikovali prema svojim regijama. Vuk Karadzic, kao lingivista, je istrazivajuci terene zakljucio da srpskim jezikom govore pravoslavci, katolici i muhamedanci, i da su prema tome svi ovi Srbi. Jagićevo mišljenje je preovladalo tek u Kraljevini Jugoslaviji, jer su vlasti pravile svakakve ustupke Hrvatim nebili ih privoleli na zajednistvo. Jagiceva teorija je stvorila u Bosni tri naroda -- a svaki je druge vere. Unikatno u svetu.

Razni staljinisti kasnije ubacuju u svoja razmisljanja o naciji razne druge kriterijume -- kulturu, religiju, poreklo, teritoriju, psiholoska svojstva, itd. ]]> http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#komentari Tue, 22 Jan 2008 16:44:19 GMT Vladimir Maričić http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/ your view http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#k145230 I am wondering what made you live in Belgrade.
I was also suprised to learn that there are no Scietologists in Congress :) ]]> http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#komentari Tue, 22 Jan 2008 16:36:07 GMT Ana WithAFamilyNameTooHardToPron http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/ religion & nationalism http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#k145214
Serbs are not genuinely religious - after all, with some exceptions, vast majority fully enjoyed 40 years of atheism - they like to uphold the image of "good Christians" because it's convenient: either because of the omnipresent "flock mentality", or as means of aiding and justifying their far more mundane goals and needs, personal or national. And that would be just fine, if only it wouldn't influence to such extent the lives of those who don't share the same medieval convictions and who don't think that clergy should be the predominant force structuring and directing our lives, our future and our country. The majority of Serbs, knowingly or inadvertently, partake in, support or simply tolerate this malignant process - and it drives me crazy.

p.s. za "govori srpski da te ceo svet razume" raju - niko vas ne bije po usima da citate blogove na engleskom, ali vi se uporno javljate sa jednim te istim pricama. Oladite bre, i ne povecavajte broj komentara i citanost imperijalistima koji bi da vam otmu ćirilicu. ]]> http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/#komentari Tue, 22 Jan 2008 16:09:34 GMT deadbeat http://blog.b92.net/text/1979/%E2%80%A6The%20Opium%20Of%20The%20People%3F/