The End of Nationalism | B92 Blog

Re: the end al' malo sutra

doktorka — Tue, 26 Feb 2008 05:18:28 GMT

LemonPie
...If the elections and the number of votes he got did not put enough pressure then I don't know what student protest will! He had a perfect chance to be what he said he would be and he blew it- AGAIN!To conclude, I think you're too optimistic (unfortunately). The nationalism is still alive and kickin'.

I agree absolutely.

History in Reverse

Vozac — Tue, 26 Feb 2008 03:14:55 GMT

The Sovereign Individual of the new millennium will no longer be an asset of the state, a de facto item on the treasury's balance sheet

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&endeca=1&isbn=0684832720&itm=40

Comment:
I have seen it 10 Years a go, and since then I do not feel like part of “the flock”. By my own eyes I have seen and live true the death of a state. So when ever I hear arguments stating word “we”, I see it coming from an inexperienced mind.

Re: good timing

Ivan Marović — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 14:32:52 GMT

Strategic nonviolent conflict, lesson number one - pull, don't push. Tadic needs to be pulled away, not pushed towards Kostunica. Regarding part two for Serbia - I believe it is time.

Re: good timing

Jelena Milić — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 07:48:38 GMT

i agree of course. i hear you. my concern is, though, that tadic does not hear us both.

much too often he abused this fair and smart logic that we have had applied. i was thinking of obtaining some clear commitments from tadic.

PS as a reply to another post--apart from shooling russinas, how about PART TWO FOR SERBIA

Intervju.

Siniša Boljanović — Sat, 23 Feb 2008 22:58:51 GMT

Postovani Ivane,

s obzirom da sam saradnik Global Voices (www.globalvoicesonline.org) dobio sam pismo citaoca sl.sadrzine:
"Hi, I am looking to get in touch with a serbian blogger, someone young who is perhaps living and working in the united states to have her or him on a nationally broadcast interview, to give a voice to their impressions in the wake of Kosovo's announcement of indepdendence.
It is saturday feb 23 and I am working under a tight deadline. Could you make a few reccomemndations to me of bloggers you think have done a good job expressing themselves?
I appreciate your posting here and I would love to connect with US-based Serb youth as soon as possible. Saturday if possible!!
thanks hugely,
if you are able to pass along any email addresses I greatly appreciate it."

Ne znam zasto, ali mi je kroz glavu proletela misao da ti zivis u Americi. Ako sam u pravu i ako si ti voljan da se odazoves na poziv mog citaoca, zamolio bih te da mi se sto pre javis na sledecu e-mail adresu: patroklo@sbb.co.yu

S postovanjem,
Sinisa Boljanovic
p.s. Ako poznajes nekoga od srpskih blogera, molim te, upoznaj ih sa sadrzajem citiranog pisma.

Re: do you know

Hugh Griffiths — Sat, 23 Feb 2008 20:50:45 GMT

Britney's pills might not be working, but there's other medication out there.

Re: Lepi Odisej

AmosMouse — Sat, 23 Feb 2008 09:20:36 GMT

Dawngreeter
Predsednik Vlade je Djelic, ne?

you wish

Dawngreeter
Ako predsednik vlade izadje iz vlade, sta onda?

clan 16: Vladi prestaje mandat sa prestankom mandata Narodne skupštine, izglasavanjem nepoverenja, ostavkom Vlade, izglasavanjem nepoverenja predsedniku Vlade i ostavkom predsednika Vlade.
Nova Vlada se bira po istom postupku kao što se bira Vlada posle konstituisanja Narodne skupštine.

Re: Lepi Odisej

Dawngreeter — Sat, 23 Feb 2008 01:50:35 GMT

Hm. Zanimljivo. Ali (imam utisak da cu sad da ispadnem strahotno glup u drustvu) Predsednik Vlade je Djelic, ne? Mislim, stvarno nisam siguran kako idu te titule, ali premijer nije isto sto i predsednig vlade, ako su meni to dobro objasnili. Ako predsednik vlade izadje iz vlade, sta onda?

Re: Lepi Odisej

AmosMouse — Sat, 23 Feb 2008 01:01:24 GMT

JJ Beba
ps
zašto se njegovi ministri ne povuku iz ove vlade i lepo ne raspišu novi izbori?

Preuzimanje ovlašćenja ministra kome je prestao mandat.
Izbor novog ministra
Član 25.
Ovlašćenja ministra kome je prestao mandat vrši član Vlade koga predsednik Vlade ovlasti.
Predsednik Vlade dužan je da predloži Narodnoj skupštini izbor novog ministra u roku od 15 dana od prestanka mandata prethodnog ministra.
Novi ministar izabran je većinom glasova od ukupnog broja narodnih poslanika.
(zakon o vladi)

енглески

Vasa S Tajcic — Sat, 23 Feb 2008 00:24:04 GMT

Why we shouldn't jump on the Kosovo bandwagon
MARCUS GEE

From Friday's Globe and Mail

E-mail Marcus Gee | Read Bio | Latest Columns
February 22, 2008 at 3:26 AM EST

The Serbian parliament condemns Kosovo's declaration of independence. Angry Serbs throng the streets of Belgrade in protest, and rioters break into the U.S. embassy. Just another spasm of ethnic bigotry in the Balkans? It's not so simple.

When Serbs argue that Kosovo's leap to independence has no legal sanction, they have a point. When they say it sets an awful precedent, they have an even better one.

Let's remember how all this came about. In 1999, an ugly little civil war was under way between Serbs and ethnic Albanians in Kosovo, a province of Serbia.

Western governments saw a repeat of the ethnic cleansing that had plagued the Balkans through the decade. They ordered Serbian leader Slobodan Milosevic to stop oppressing the Kosovo Albanians or face the consequences. When he proved un-co-operative, they bombed targets around Serbia. Albanians fled Kosovo in the hundreds of thousands, arousing the sympathy of the world. After 10 weeks of conflict, Mr. Milosevic capitulated and pulled his troops out of Kosovo. NATO troops moved in and have been there ever since.

This was viewed at the time as an example of humanitarian intervention that worked. A nasty man, Mr. Milosevic, had been brought to heel (and eventually forced from power). The Albanians had been saved and could return to their homes to rebuild their lives.

But NATO's intervention was never intended to back the Kosovo Albanians' fight to break away from Serbia. That, after all, would have meant intervening on the side of a secession movement fuelled by ethnic nationalism, hardly the sort of thing liberal Western countries want to get into. The idea, they insisted, was merely to head off the ethnic cleansing and rescue the refugees, with political solutions to be left for later.

The United Nations resolution that came out of the Kosovo war explicitly recognized the territorial integrity of Yugoslavia (in today's terms, Serbia, Yugoslavia's recognized successor state). That clearly meant that the UN was not endorsing the secession of Kosovo. Yet, the U.S., Britain, Italy and France have all recognized the breakaway Kosovo state. No wonder the Serbs feel angry and betrayed. They are losing a large part of their already diminished country. They are seeing many of their ethnic kin in Kosovo, the 120,000 remaining Serbs, marooned in a hostile Albanian sea.

Western governments argue (with considerable logic) that the horse has bolted the barn. The Kosovo Albanians are never going to agree to live under Serbian rule again, and every attempt at reaching some Serbian-Albanian compromise, such as autonomy for Kosovo within Serbia, has failed utterly. They say (again with logic) that, after nearly a decade in limbo, Kosovo has to be left to get on with its life as a free nation. As U.S. President George Bush put it, "The Kosovars are now independent."

But have they really thought through what this means? Other ethnic secession movements certainly have. "I salute the independence of Kosovo. No people can be forced to live under the rule of another," said Mehmet Ali Talat, leader of the Turkish Cypriots. The Basque regional government in northern Spain hailed Kosovo's independence as "a new example of the right of self-determination." Leaders of breakaway movements from the Transdniester region of Moldova to South Ossetia and Abkhazia in Georgia chimed in, too. Even the Bosnian Serbs, who were the centre of the worst of the Balkan bloodshed in the 1990s, claim that Kosovo's secession justifies their own bid to be free of Bosnia-Herzegovina - the patched together federation that the West has tried for years to keep from coming apart.

Western governments can't just dismiss these as the wild claims of woolly foreigners. Many have secession movements close to home. Britain has Scotland, which has been part of the United Kingdom for a mere 300 years, considerably less than Serbia's claim to Kosovo. Spain has the Basques and the Catalans. That is why Madrid has refused to jump on the bandwagon and recognize Kosovo. It argues, quite rightly, that Kosovo's independence has neither the consent of both parties involved nor the assent of the Security Council (which is deadlocked on the issue).

Let's not even speak of Quebec. Canadian warplanes took part in the campaign against Serbia in 1999, a campaign that has resulted in the secession of a province on the basis of its people's demand to be maîtres chez nous. Is this what was intended when the West cheered victory in Kosovo?

Re: ?

BebaOdLonchara — Fri, 22 Feb 2008 23:37:14 GMT

i think he thinks these days:

they were good?! i dont think so...

Student's protest

historix — Fri, 22 Feb 2008 23:19:49 GMT

...Amos,

if the one wants to help, to support studets movement EUROPE HAS NO ALTERNATIVE, their potential would become much bigger. Insted of beeing suspicious, help them to articulate it.

I also think that the title is not too optimistic. I think now is the chance to diminish nationalistic tendencies in Serbia, bearing in mind both DSS and VK, as well as some organisations like OBRAZ, 1389, PONOS, NOMOKANON etc.

They have shown their faces yesterday evening. Finally, it is very clear to everyone that those are not "nice prayerful boys and girls" that represent good pupils and honest youth, but poor vandals and stealers. And finally everyone knows who is their patetic leader. And leader is blind!

Re: the learning curve

vnk — Fri, 22 Feb 2008 19:43:01 GMT

Apparently, not. People need to learn not to be led and that's what a good leader must do in Serbia.

hope is a good thing...

AmosMouse — Fri, 22 Feb 2008 18:29:03 GMT

...maybe the best of things

Coco Rosie
ja nesto nisam optimista.

my thoughts exactly

AmosMouse — Fri, 22 Feb 2008 18:21:44 GMT

well, almost exactly. with few exceptions:

1.the title – too optimistic, even for me. beginning of the end maybe, the end – not yet, i'm afraid. it will be around for many years to come. but hopefully weaker and weaker. we can beat it. we must beat it.
2.criticism of bt – see jelena's amandment
3.student's protests for eu integration – not sure about the potential of that. perhaps if articulated somehow, but haven't got a clue how :(

with all the rest i agree and i admire the way you have put it. thanks

Re: Re:

Fri, 22 Feb 2008 17:52:30 GMT

One of the important aspects of leadership is, well, leadership. One at least has to persuade people to vote for him/her.

But I will admit that it certainly is just one of the many, many aspects of a good statesperson. I cringe when people choose their candidates by how they say things rather than what they say.

And that perhaps one charismatic person at the head of this country has proved many times to be very dangerous. And that for that reason power in Serbia should be distributed over several offices and institutions.
For stability purposes.

But nobody will ever get to lead the people upon whom he/she looks down and whom they call 'masses' in a pejorative way. And whom they do not try to understand or connect with, putting them down as too unworthy.

In some of these aspects (although probably not all of them) LDP is not doing a good job.

Re: Re:

Dawngreeter — Fri, 22 Feb 2008 17:50:37 GMT

Ana, you're saying what I'm thinking. That's exactly what our political leaders need to do. We do not need those who seek to appeal to everyone, but those who are doing something of use.

Which does not remove the need for some old-fashioned revolution action. I don't think we'll be getting rid of the guys shitting in our pond through agreements and compromises. We can get rid of these guys and then elect those people who did something of use to us. If we do our job well enough, ten years from now people just might stop popping boners every time some fat bastard starts speaking of war and xenophobia.

Re: Re:

Ana WithAFamilyNameTooHardToPron — Fri, 22 Feb 2008 17:45:15 GMT

Dawngreeter
Quite possibly, yes. I agree. This country has lost a lot when he was killed and he could have done so much for us all.But he was not the uniting leader. Intelligent people who can help this country will never, ever be uniting leaders. Uniting leaders are those people for whom the zombies Belgrade witnessed last night will vote.

I disagree. An average Serb is not any worse or better than an average American.
Serbia needs somebody who will set up some practical goals in best interest of all people, beyond the interest of individual party, fulfil them and let people experience an improvement in their quality of life. That speaks better than any preaching. It will take some time, but people need to learn to vote for better life, not some spiritual mambo jumbo. Next time when the choice between mambo-jumbo and practicical improvement in everyday life is offered they will not have any dilemma who to chose.
The problem with the current situation is that there is no proper alternative.

Re: Re:

Dawngreeter — Fri, 22 Feb 2008 17:38:30 GMT

Well you mentioned something along the lines of

i
a leader with the skill of gathering everyone around the common cause...

Which I just shortened to 'uniting leader'.

But, no, I do agree with you. I just don't think mass appeal needs to factor in as much as you seem to, because what appeals to the masses isn't something I want to be a part of.

LDP is doing a good job so far, in that respect.

Re: Re:

Fri, 22 Feb 2008 17:34:09 GMT

You came up with the term 'uniting leader', not me.

We need someone who can do the job. Djindjic could. Nobody at the moment in Serbia seems to be able to. We need someone new.

As simple as that.

No new gods, charismatic tyrants, or resigned nationalistic 'historians'... Just someone who can do the job.

Re: Re:

Dawngreeter — Fri, 22 Feb 2008 17:29:37 GMT

Quite possibly, yes. I agree. This country has lost a lot when he was killed and he could have done so much for us all.

But he was not the uniting leader. Intelligent people who can help this country will never, ever be uniting leaders. Uniting leaders are those people for whom the zombies Belgrade witnessed last night will vote.

Re: Re:

Fri, 22 Feb 2008 17:26:33 GMT

And I disagree about Djindjic - why not call him by his name - I think that he had the potential of leading this country into true reforms, and that he would have done it if he had not been prevented in such a brutal way.

Re: Re:

Dawngreeter — Fri, 22 Feb 2008 17:25:57 GMT

Yes, we need ideas. We need people who believe in those ideas. And we need some good old-fashioned revolution action. Not an actual revolution, mind you, I'm not particularly fond of those unless they're absolutely necessary.

And we need for the next guy to take control of this country to be in mortal fear of its people.

Re: Re:

Fri, 22 Feb 2008 17:21:49 GMT

No unity, no achievements.

The problem with our previous uniting leaders is that they did NOT act in the best interest of this country, nor were they capable of doing so.

But what is it that this country needs then, in your opinion?

I will allow it to you that perhaps the only thing needed more than good leaders (perhaps more than one, why not - a group, a system) is good ideas.

Re: Re:

Dawngreeter — Fri, 22 Feb 2008 17:14:11 GMT

That's all well and good. What I am saying is that the intelligent man of whom you speak was not the uniting leader. The fat bastard currently controlling this country was. It does us little service to have people realize who the important people were only when they're dead. And from what we can see today, not nearly enough people realized this even after his death.

Milosevices and Kostunicas of this world are the uniting leaders. I submit to you that we do not want such people running our country.

Re: Re:

Fri, 22 Feb 2008 16:58:05 GMT

Judging from the reaction to his murder - I'd say you are wrong. Perhaps people only then realized what they lost... but it still shows his potential. Just as the killing does.

Re: Re:

Dawngreeter — Fri, 22 Feb 2008 16:54:32 GMT

The killed guy wasn't the uniting leader. He was the guy talking sense who was deeply resented and vastly unpopular. He could never, not in a million years, win the presidential elections.

Re: Re:

Fri, 22 Feb 2008 16:50:50 GMT

The only one I remember was killed.

We still don't have an alternative but to keep going. Try a new one. Democracy.... At least we can change them when they get 'rotten'.

Re: Re:

Dawngreeter — Fri, 22 Feb 2008 16:46:40 GMT

We already had a true leader unite us the last time this took place. I would suggest that looking for a new true leader to replace the old true leader might not be a shining example of learning from experience.

After all, the very definition of insanity is repeating the same thing over and over again while expecting different results.

Re: Re:

Fri, 22 Feb 2008 16:43:31 GMT

Serbia does need a leader with the skill of gathering everyone around the common cause... The common cause right now seems to be the reforms leading to admission into EU. But who will the leader be? Ceda does not seem to have a broad appeal, judging from the election results. Tadic is not strong or determined (or motivated?) enough to use the support of voters... but he will have to do for the moment.

In the long run, we need someone new. In my humble opinion, it would ideally be someone with modern values, a greater picture in mind, a strong vision for Serbia, with that leadership quality that includes broad appeal, and, finally, selflessness (not a little politician worried only for his little... ahem, behind... but someone who actually cares about this country and these people).
A TRUE LEADER.

Re: do you know

Vodzo Modzo — Fri, 22 Feb 2008 16:29:48 GMT

I'd like to think this could be the last flash - back of nationalism. However, I agree that instead of whining, we have to rally.

Re: do you know

Solomon — Fri, 22 Feb 2008 16:13:02 GMT

did you know that AP already wrote spears obituary? not a good omen.

Well, this is a point from which she will either recover fully or she will continue to slide into oblivion.
That comparison with Serbia is, I think, valid.

P.S. - Are you snowed in today ?

Re: ?

Dawngreeter — Fri, 22 Feb 2008 16:05:26 GMT

Of course you have to form a group. Corruption, however, is not inherent to groups but to authority. Corruption on an individual level is not cost-efficient because you are only swaying one voice in a crowd. Institutions created to keep the government in check, however, have a formal hierarchy, positions of authority and all the other factors that are such fertile ground for corruption.

Groups of people, of course, have a different problem. They are swayed by propaganda, charismatic leaders and so forth. This is a real problem mostly perpetuated by centralized (or predominantly centralized) mass media. But it isn't corruption. Once you have enough people who want to protest, they are already beyond the mass media manipulation for the most part. The issue, then, is starting the protest rather than keeping it free of corruption. Which is why we need them to take place as frequently as possible, never to lose sight of their necessity.

Re: Is it really over?

Ivan Marović — Fri, 22 Feb 2008 15:59:56 GMT

AlexTheVeliki
Knowing how many times Serbia and Serbs have hurt their own interests through self-destructive acts of stubbornness, hardheadedness, and pure seething rage...

When Milosevic came to power he offered clear political goal - imperialist and warmongering, but clear. Today no nationalist offered something like that. That's why I beleive that this is the end of nationalism.

Re: ?

mpuzovic — Fri, 22 Feb 2008 15:59:04 GMT

Dawngreeter

Because that establishes an authoritarian hierarchy which is, as any other authoritarian hierarchy such as the political one we are trying to keep in check, susceptible to corruption. And then we'd have to protest against it as well as the government. Further layering the political structure does not benefit us.

When you want to start a protest you have to form a group of people that have same ideas. By forming that group you are forming a new layer within society. Then using your logic that group of people will become suspectible to corruption. Without forming that group of people (which is probably going to extend/shrink sooner or later) you will end up with protest that will be the same as one that was last night. Out of chaos you cannot make order. You have to start with order.