Shopping Ourselves to Recovery | B92 Blog

Re: I'm looking forward...

Sofroniye — Mon, 06 Apr 2009 13:06:12 GMT

Chris Farmer
Ah! Mea massima culpa... I will write it anyway as it is a Bee in my Bonnet.

As to WC (i.e., Western Cap), I suppose you are correct that Western manufacturing has been largely flushed out to Asia, but the WC (i.e, now read Westerner Consumer) is alive and well and consuming copiously.

I remember reading, for example, that Nike was the single largest employer in Vietnam - larger even than the government.

I was writing more about the causal chain than the origin of the producers. We cause things to be made; we buy them; and we thus cause MORE to be be made....

Well I would say that actually production overall is going done. That is why we will see even more layoffs in China. People are buying less and producers are actually making less in order to avoid stocking up. Consumer spending in February was actually down.

Re: I'm looking forward...

Chris Farmer — Sun, 05 Apr 2009 13:42:18 GMT

Ah! Mea massima culpa... I will write it anyway as it is a Bee in my Bonnet.

As to WC (i.e., Western Cap), I suppose you are correct that Western manufacturing has been largely flushed out to Asia, but the WC (i.e, now read Westerner Consumer) is alive and well and consuming copiously.

I remember reading, for example, that Nike was the single largest employer in Vietnam - larger even than the government.

I was writing more about the causal chain than the origin of the producers. We cause things to be made; we buy them; and we thus cause MORE to be be made....

I'm looking forward...

Domazet — Sun, 05 Apr 2009 12:17:19 GMT

Chris Farmer
Domazet
...'western capitalism' or Chris didn't leave Serbia for quite some time...

The intrinsic alienation of "we" and "you" or "us" and "them" will be the subject of a further study...

...but I had in mind a bit more mundane fact that Western Capitalism does not produce all that much anymore. Providing that services are not understood as commodity or merchandise. Are they?

Re: Either 'we' does not relate to...

Chris Farmer — Sun, 05 Apr 2009 08:01:29 GMT

Domazet
...'western capitalism' or Chris didn't leave Serbia for quite some time...

The intrinsic alienation of "we" and "you" or "us" and "them" will be the subject of a further study...

Either 'we' does not relate to...

Domazet — Sat, 04 Apr 2009 19:00:58 GMT

Western capitalism. It is predicated on the consumer. We produce commodities and merchandise in large quantities...

'western capitalism' or Chris didn't leave Serbia for quite some time...

Re: Money money money money

Chris Farmer — Sat, 04 Apr 2009 18:49:57 GMT

Sofroniye
Depends on how you define consumerism. While it is true that people go for brands (which as a social phenomenon on par, in my opinion, with famous European snobbishness) it is also through that FIXING things precedes BUYING new. My comment was related to that and I still stand behind it. I visited Serbia recently and quite often heard (I know some will say that is due to lack of purchasing power but I still believe it is more than that) oh I don't need to buy that I can fix this.

I am not convinced that people find a value in fixing what is broken more than a necessity to do so because of a) lack of cash to replace or b) lack of availability. Also, while every new gizmo is usually available here, retailers will almost never have replacement parts to fix them.

And I still believe that everybody is preparing for war. Russians are building new submarines, Americans are putting quite a bit of Obama's package into military industry. If I am making weapons sooner or later I will want to recover some money I put into that. Of course USA military industry creates a lot of spinoff technologies/companies and I agree that there is some return in it but still I read somewhere that Americans didn't fully recover cost of Vietnamese war (not to mention one in Iraq and Afghanistan).

Whether or not we are preparing for war - and some would argue that having a standing army and military budget means we are ALWAYS preparing for war - the question as to its economic benefit would still remain.

Personally, I am not convinced that a war would do anything more for world economics than a general reduction of population. The military-industrial complex is alive and well with or without a war to sustain it as long as governments decide the allocate funds to it.

Let's hope we do not put either of our theories to the test...

Re: Money money money money

Sofroniye — Sat, 04 Apr 2009 17:28:37 GMT

One of the points which I wanted to make, however, would be that a little more competition would be welcome. Retail works in Serbia – we ne

Depends on how you define consumerism. While it is true that people go for brands (which as a social phenomenon on par, in my opinion, with famous European snobbishness) it is also through that FIXING things precedes BUYING new. My comment was related to that and I still stand behind it. I visited Serbia recently and quite often heard (I know some will say that is due to lack of purchasing power but I still believe it is more than that) oh I don't need to buy that I can fix this. The American consumerism as it stands in my opinion means I will go and buy 20 pairs of shoes although I need one or I will throw away this broken thing and buy a new one. Anyway I still stand behind this only Chinese and Indian spending can create some boost in the West.

And I still believe that everybody is preparing for war. Russians are building new submarines, Americans are putting quite a bit of Obama's package into military industry. If I am making weapons sooner or later I will want to recover some money I put into that. Of course USA military industry creates a lot of spinoff technologies/companies and I agree that there is some return in it but still I read somewhere that Americans didn't fully recover cost of Vietnamese war (not to mention one in Iraq and Afghanistan). Therefore I believe that within couple of years (at most 10-15) we will have a big one.

The easiest way to change how people think is war. I think that here we are witnessing something else not just the economy. WWI convinced people that some type of global government is needed. (It is well known fact that Woodrow Wilson wanted to be the first world president). What will be the purpose of WWIII it remains to be seen :)

Re: Money money money money

Chris Farmer — Sat, 04 Apr 2009 16:09:33 GMT

I feel I must disagree with the war assessment.

The fact is that this country (i.e., Serbia and Yugoslavia) has long been a place of consumerism. We have always liked to buy brands and designer labels, often going abroad to do so when they were not available here. Even in the time of sanctions, the shops were crowded and sales of what merchandise was available were thriving.

Further, the long-standing (although now diminishing) black market for counterfeit or smuggled goods also stands of proof of the people's desire to buy more, to accumulate possessions, or to acquire status symbols. I do not think it is so much different here than elsewhere in the world.

As to the economic benefits of war, there is much literature about the pros and cons. I believe, however, that wars benefit large economic systems more - they spur industrial production put more people into the workforce, and other such effects.

The US economy rebounded after WWII for this reason. Also because the war was not fought there. But no one will tell you that war brought an economic panacea to Germany and Italy, two countries which required years of reconstruction and a lot of money to nurse back to health.

I think in Serbia we can and will spend our way out of this crisis – and if not out exactly then at least through it.

One of the points which I wanted to make, however, would be that a little more competition would be welcome. Retail works in Serbia – we need more choice not more of the same.

Money money money money

Sofroniye — Sat, 04 Apr 2009 14:32:50 GMT

Serbia is not quite the right place to promote that idea. Nor that will resolve the current problem. As far as I can see it there are two ways to get out of this (well three but 3rd is not very likely): a) one really big war, b) govt. of China and India stimulate spending both through consumer loans (similar to what large dept. stores have in USA) and changing the spending habits of their people (Chinese are not big spenders even when they have money - just to prevent racism accusations which are rather popular on this site I am talking about Chinese ppl that I met and had opportunity to observe for a longer period of time) which can only (?) be done through some kind of "mind shaping" strategies.

The 3rd one is less probable. Obviously some people took away money from some other people in eternal war for balance of power. They are waiting to buy things (houses, companies, loans etc) at very low prices. They could simply come out and reinvest it. This shifting power through money grab is a known strategy and was done in 90s to Arabs and their investments in communication and car industry.

But overall I agree, spending is the preferred way to get out of this but as far as I can see a war is more likely solution.

Roger, over and out.

The Crux

dunjica — Sat, 04 Apr 2009 12:16:50 GMT

We see the same shops over and over again until finally we feel they are part of our mental landscape.

This is what makes the places all over the world becoming gradually replicas of the same prototype, product of a bad taste and lack of creativity. This killed my potential to become a good consumer long time ago.

I hope

drug.clan — Sat, 04 Apr 2009 11:56:28 GMT

Western capitalism. It is predicated on the consumer. We produce commodities and merchandise in large quantities to trade for money.

Are you sure? You are talking about eastern communism?

With the money, we build more and we buy more.

Or "After we spend all the money, we take credit and we buy more"

I hope that "buy, buy" will soon became "bye bye"

Re: why?!

Jelena Pavlović — Sat, 04 Apr 2009 09:54:31 GMT

Re: why?!

Chris Farmer — Sat, 04 Apr 2009 09:38:47 GMT

I submit that if you are not a consumer, you are not a human.

We must consume (food at least), and unless we grow everything ourselves or eat only berries and tree bark from the forest, at some point we will all have been consumer.

That you identify yourself first as a human, this is another story... I should have hoped it were so fundamentally true that it would go without saying. But then, I must also make allowances for making politically correct sound bites.

Glibness to one side, I regret to inform you that you are indeed a consumer. Like the rest of us.

It is not such a bad thing.

why?!

odpocetka — Sat, 04 Apr 2009 09:14:12 GMT

Don't get it. Maybe because I am a human, not a consumer...

Another quote

Sepulturero — Sat, 04 Apr 2009 08:20:55 GMT

Shop until you drop!