The Real Life Truth About Serbia & America | B92 Blog

True..

Nikola Petrovic — Sat, 29 Sep 2007 18:08:15 GMT

Valid post. I'm a student, and I've spent last two summers in the U.S. and I can say that the post reflects the actual relationship Americans have with other countries, especially the small ones.. I was on the Work & Travel program (worked in a candy shop), and I've met all kinds of people. In general, they like to meet foreigners and hear their stories, like where we are from, and what are we doing in the States, do we like it and so and so... and do you know what happens when I say that I'm from Serbia? Most of the answers are: "Oh, it must be very cold there..." or " Where is that ?" or " Really? ..hm, nice..." So, besides mixing us up with people from Russian Siberia, most of them have no clue about Serbia's location and/or existence. Rosemary explained this phenomenon very well.
By the way, the Americans' knowledge about our country is improving rapidly in past few years. I especially like the fact that sooo many Americans recognize our country due to the Novak Djokovic's success in tennis, and whatever the other sport results of our people. "Oh you're from Serbia, your guy won Federer the other day, what was his name, Novo, Nov....." ...there's time, they'll learn the name...

Re: Da je bilo sreće...

Tresko — Fri, 28 Sep 2007 09:27:54 GMT

jankovicf
My personall reason of not coming to USA is humiliating visa procedurewell US citizens also need vise for coming to Serbia, and so do Dutch people and many people from other countries

I think you should take your head out of TV(or some other place not to mention): US citizens DO NOT need visa to enter Serbia, neither Dutch people, or Canadian........................................

Re: Same experience

dunjica — Wed, 26 Sep 2007 10:41:51 GMT

Hehehehe, Vucko... and: nononono ;-)

Maybe the absence of some family members was a reason for good mood, but with the friends... would have been even better if they were there, I assume (because you choose your friends yourself and the family is simply given to you).

Re: what's so weird?

silicuda — Wed, 26 Sep 2007 07:53:17 GMT

jankovicf
At most, 2% of Americans know what and where Serbia is.Well of course the majority of Americans don't know where Serbia is. Why should they? Do you know where Uzbekistan or Trinidad and Tobacco is?

It's Trinidad and Tobago not tobacco....

and yes many americans know where trinidad & tobago is because trinidad & tobago understand the benefits of promoting their country to potential tourists

Re: Same experience

vucko — Wed, 26 Sep 2007 07:41:28 GMT

You´re right, they´ve missed a lot since we have had the funniest and most enjoyable wedding I´ve ever been to ;-)) (our guests said the same)

Could their absence be the reason? :)

Re: Same experience

dunjica — Wed, 26 Sep 2007 07:28:16 GMT

You´re right, they´ve missed a lot since we have had the funniest and most enjoyable wedding I´ve ever been to ;-)) (our guests said the same)

Fortunately we stay friends, inspite of the pride.

Re: Same experience

Atomski mrav — Wed, 26 Sep 2007 05:46:12 GMT

So they were actually embarrassed to accept your financial help... OK, I can understand that but I think they should have considered your (and your husband's) feelings. At the bottom line, you made a very nice gesture and maybe they should "swallow their pride" for this occasion... I'm sure they would have had good time, and a lot of great memories from this wedding... this way, they don't even have a picture of them together with the bride and the groom :(

Re: Serbia? Did you mean siberia??

jankovicf — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 17:58:35 GMT

silicuda
Serbia? Did you mean Siberia??

FACT: 99% of americans/canadians do not know where serbia is or what serbia is.

When I go and visit grandparents in SRBIJA (ZIVELI!!!) and I converse with them via MSN -- friends of mine from Cali or Vancouver(Canada) always ask -- "HOWS EUROPE!!!!!!!!"

You see -- Canadians/Americans refer to all countries in Europe as a whole -- no matter if we're in Serbia, Germany, Austria, or whatever to them it's all just EUROPE.

That is the truth, see the movie EuroTrip

well it's a good thing that they see Europe in whole. I mean Europe has far better reputation than Serbia itself...

Re: Da je bilo sreće...

oldtajmer — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 17:33:03 GMT

P.S. Have you seen the USA visa application form? There is a question like: are you or have you ever been a member of a terrorist organization. If yes, what organization.

There is also the question: "are you or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?", which was a problem for a lot of citizens of ex-SFRJ in the past.

If you apply for a Canadian visa, and are a Serb male of military age, you will be asked all sorts of questions about your military service, which unit you were stationed in, what your "nickname" was, who were your commanding officers, etc. This supposedly to screen for war crimes suspects.

While I agree all this is humiliating and dehumanizing, in a way it's our own fault. We are the ones who chose (a majority in Serbia *did* elect Milosevic) to be on the wrong side of World Public Opinion. Like it or not, countries do have a right to institute any kind of Visa procedure they choose for people crossing their borders.

Re: Power without control means nothing

adam weisphaut — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 14:35:24 GMT

Hey, I know you were being sarcastic, I was but pointing out you had chosen a bad example to use, nothing more
bye

Re: Da je bilo sreće...

jankovicf — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 13:26:54 GMT

My personall reason of not coming to USA is humiliating visa procedure

well US citizens also need vise for coming to Serbia, and so do Dutch people and many people from other countries

Re: ...

jankovicf — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 13:21:33 GMT

politics are not discussed routinely in the US the way they are in Europe. It's not considered polite to bring up politics at a dinner party unless guests whose jobs are in politics are present

I'd like to see that here...
Interestingly enough, it seems that the more we are interested in politics, the less success is achieved by those who are supposed to be involved in it professionally.

I agree. When you live in NY for instance, you can live the whole life and don't hear a word about politics. Here... well you know. Here everything stops when it's elections time...

Re: Welcome aboard!

jankovicf — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 13:17:29 GMT

American official politics <=> American people

I totally agree.

Re: omnipotent branding

jankovicf — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 13:15:55 GMT

we are not talking about politics here. Politics has nothing to do with the real feelings and beliefs. American politicians can treat Serbia however they like because they can afford it. I don't say it's how it is supposed to be it's just the way it is...

Re: Why do they hate us, boohoo?

jankovicf — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 13:10:52 GMT

It's not the American people's fault that we have been bombed by American army.

Re: Power without control means nothing

sheridan — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 13:00:23 GMT

adam weisphaut

....
Actually I and the rest of my family were ardent supporters of Dindjic's party at the time , and I even became its member during the bombing whilst it was publicly proclaimed a semi-enemy organization. As for deserters I could have sheltered, I didn't know any at the time It's not that there weren't any people against Milosevic, it was just that they were a minority

I have no doubts about that. That part of my reply was meant to be sarcastic, and I do completely agree that there were some people against milosevic, only too few. Even fewer were ready to stand up and criticise actions in kosovo - which was my point, but which is now diverging too far from the subject of the blog so I suggest we leave it there.

have a nice day

Re: what's so weird?

jankovicf — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 12:58:47 GMT

I told you I know nothing about that country. And I'm not American.

Great post

jankovicf — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 12:57:18 GMT

I really like your post. Too bad that the majority of people who should read it won't be able to because it's in English. So it would be a good idea to translate it and publish in some papers ...
Anyway, I completely agree with you. I know all of these is the truth because I have recently been to United States. To New York City precisely. Most of people in US (but not only in US but worldwide) don't know where is Serbia and even what Serbia actually is and that's OK. Some of them will know (vaguely) where you are from if you say Yugoslavia, but most of them will still have no idea. But I personally don't get offended by such things. For instance, if someone from Zimbabwe (or some other country that I've barely heard of) told me where he was from I would act the same.
Also most of them don't even know that their army bombed us. They have better things to do than think about where Serbia is or what's going on in world's politics or even US politics.
America is a beautiful country (as far as I know it). Especially NYC. It's a great urban city whit interesting stuff for everyone. I think that anyone that has the opportunity to go and visit America should definitely not miss the opportunity... It's a great experience for everyone...

Re: what's so weird?

adam weisphaut — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 12:52:41 GMT

Trinidad and Tobacco

I gather you are trying to quit smoking and this was your subconscious slip

Re: Power without control means nothing

adam weisphaut — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 12:50:05 GMT

Of course, he could have joined the milions on the streets of Belgrade protesting against the masacres in Kosovo. He could have help hide all those military and police conscripts who refused to go there and do the bidding of the nationlist government. Maybe he could have at least signed any one of milions of petitions asking for withdrawal of serbian troops from there. Possibly he could have been one of milions of supporters of numerous Serbian political parties oposed to nationalism?

Actually I and the rest of my family were ardent supporters of Dindjic's party at the time , and I even became its member during the bombing whilst it was publicly proclaimed a semi-enemy organization. As for deserters I could have sheltered, I didn't know any at the time It's not that there weren't any people against Milosevic, it was just that they were a minority

Re: Power without control means nothing

sheridan — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 12:40:00 GMT

FlyingFish
All the suffering of the albanian people in kosovo was ignored or supported by most of the population of serbia. Blimey, you have some serious statistics there! Pray share them!

I did, albeit in a somewhat sarcastic manner. There were no manifestations of dicontent, no petitions, demonstrations, strikes, massive desertations etc. (well none to speak of, there always was a decent but tiny minority) to demonstrate otherwise. Several elections and public votes in years after the events where exactly the same politics and same politicians keep winning by overwhelming majorities are further prof of this.

FlyingFish

As I said, once you learn somehow and somewhere what democracy is, Since you obviously know something I don't, can you please provide me with defining features of a democratic government/state? Many thanks,

I asked first Besides, it really is too broad a subject for this forum. To point you in the right direction, democracy (most broadly) refers to a situation where the people have a high level of control over their own government (and a lot more besides it but not the point here) - you are talking about american international politics. Even if this was all bad and nasty and done by america alone as a demonstration of her military might (which it is not, but again, not the point), this is nothing to do with the relationship between american government and american people. Does this help?

what's so weird?

jankovicf — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 12:31:04 GMT

At most, 2% of Americans know what and where Serbia is.

Well of course the majority of Americans don't know where Serbia is. Why should they? Do you know where Uzbekistan or Trinidad and Tobacco is?

Re: Same experience

dunjica — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 12:27:21 GMT

Most of them didn´t need visa then. They who needed it, didn´t want us to help with the visa. My only explanation is - they were too proud to accept help.

As usually, only one who is well off anyway, would have accepted our financial help. But she came and payed her travelling costs herself. We agreed to use money for something else.

Re: Same experience

Atomski mrav — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 12:21:42 GMT

Do you know why they didn't come? I mean, did they say that they didn't have the visa for Germany, or that they didn't have the time or... there was something else involved?

Re: Power without control means nothing

FlyingFish — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 12:07:34 GMT

All the suffering of the albanian people in kosovo was ignored or supported by most of the population of serbia.

Blimey, you have some serious statistics there! Pray share them!

As I said, once you learn somehow and somewhere what democracy is,

Since you obviously know something I don't, can you please provide me with defining features of a democratic government/state? Many thanks,

Re: Power without control means nothing

sheridan — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 11:38:12 GMT

FlyingFish
Remember this slogan from a commmercial for tyres? Snaga bez kontrole ne znaci nista.

There is absolutely no dispute that the States are the greatest power in the world and that Serbia then (and, alas, I daresay now) was unbelievably dim to have such an attitude and there is a price for that. America has power. But is their foreign policy really the way that power should be exercised?! Power without control means nothing, cowboys!

I agree with you about EU and Russia, but, sorry, your arguments about the US are just not on. And they are not on because we are here talking about their foreign, not internal, affairs (HR and the democracy that you mention are practiced in the US, not in the countries they bully around).

Really? And how does anyone exercise democracy in the countries where people do not vote for them? Also, what do you think are the issues with control over the "power of america" as exercised by american voters, their senate, and congress, by other NATO governments and UN SC?What about their own internal judiciary, what issues do you see there? Also, what constitutes this "power of america" and who do you think controls it?

Or maybe you are just one of those people who think of america as a naughty and nasty person and on the other hand believes that "democratic" means more or less the same as nice and fair? It does not. It is a description of a system of government, also very little to do with original Athenian one.

FlyingFish

I am here referring to the US, which did not sign the Kyotto. The US that did not sign The UN Charter of Children's Rights. The US which have not abolished death penalty.

Yeah....and your point is? how are these things not democratic, and how do they affect the freedom of american people?

FlyingFish

The US that are for years now trying to bomb democracy into people across the Globe. The Americans who call themselves patriots, but for whom everybody else's patriotism is nationalism...

Oh, is that right, americans are patriots? All of them? Majority? Blimey, you have some serious statistics there! Pray share them!

FlyingFish

And, regarding the selective memory... We all know what was going on on Kosovo at that time. But - what did you, Adam Weisphaut, do to deserve sitting in your flat, with cluster bombs exploding around you?
If they knew, as they did know, that Milosevic was the driving force behind the crimes, why didn't they just do him in? Don't tell me that that was not feasible. And if they knew (as they did know) that the population of Belgrade is strongly opposed to the Milosevic regime, why did they bomb civil targets there? Don't tell me that they didn't.

Of course, he could have joined the milions on the streets of Belgrade protesting against the masacres in Kosovo. He could have help hide all those military and police conscripts who refused to go there and do the bidding of the nationlist government. Maybe he could have at least signed any one of milions of petitions asking for withdrawal of serbian troops from there. Possibly he could have been one of milions of supporters of numerous Serbian political parties oposed to nationalism?

All the suffering of the albanian people in kosovo was ignored or supported by most of the population of serbia. It was not purely a whim of a crazed dictator and his private militia. Besides all this, NATO did bomb strategic targets only (well mostly). Anyway, I would be curious to hear about the civilian targets bombed in Belgrade (aside from television objects, which were not civilian and there was plenty of warning about it anyway).

FlyingFish

The thing is - they did it only to excercise power, to show they are the most powerful nation in the world. With such arrogance and intimidation tactics,

Nope. They did it to stop the advance of serbian army and militias in kosovo (also, if I remember well, this was a NATO action, not american army). In which they succeeded.

FlyingFish

I wonder where we can squeeze at least a grain of democracy they are boasting about!

As I said, once you learn somehow and somewhere what democracy is, you will see how silly this sentence is.

Same experience

dunjica — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 11:37:51 GMT

When I married my Serb husband, none of his family and friends from Serbia came to the wedding in the US even when we offered to pay for all travel. People from many other countries, however, happily accepted.

I had the same expereince, except that my husband is German and I am Croat. So none of our neither Cro/Serb/Bosnian friends came inspite of the offer that their travelling costs will be payed. I feel sometimes upset and angry at the same time for that.

Power without control means nothing

FlyingFish — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 09:04:17 GMT

Remember this slogan from a commmercial for tyres? Snaga bez kontrole ne znaci nista.

There is absolutely no dispute that the States are the greatest power in the world and that Serbia then (and, alas, I daresay now) was unbelievably dim to have such an attitude and there is a price for that. America has power. But is their foreign policy really the way that power should be exercised?! Power without control means nothing, cowboys!

I agree with you about EU and Russia, but, sorry, your arguments about the US are just not on. And they are not on because we are here talking about their foreign, not internal, affairs (HR and the democracy that you mention are practiced in the US, not in the countries they bully around).
I am here referring to the US, which did not sign the Kyotto. The US that did not sign The UN Charter of Children's Rights. The US which have not abolished death penalty. The US that are for years now trying to bomb democracy into people across the Globe. The Americans who call themselves patriots, but for whom everybody else's patriotism is nationalism...

And, regarding the selective memory... We all know what was going on on Kosovo at that time. But - what did you, Adam Weisphaut, do to deserve sitting in your flat, with cluster bombs exploding around you?

If they knew, as they did know, that Milosevic was the driving force behind the crimes, why didn't they just do him in? Don't tell me that that was not feasible. And if they knew (as they did know) that the population of Belgrade is strongly opposed to the Milosevic regime, why did they bomb civil targets there? Don't tell me that they didn't.

The thing is - they did it only to excercise power, to show they are the most powerful nation in the world. With such arrogance and intimidation tactics, I wonder where we can squeeze at least a grain of democracy they are boasting about!

Re: Why do they hate us, boohoo?

adam weisphaut — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 07:30:43 GMT

I've just noticed your reply, so I'm sorry you've had to wait for the reply.

FlyingFish

Whenever I meet people who see America as the epitome of democtacy and love, I am gob-smacked by the stupidity of it.

I don't idealize the US. if that's what you think. However if you view the US as a country, but in the domain of hr and democracy, comparatively it surpasses by far a great number of countries, especially Serbia's darling Russia. I myself prefer the democracy of EU and ardently advocate that Serbia should become its member state.

Were you in the country in the spring of 1999? Do you remember the syrens, detonations, power and water cuts, looking at the sky day and night, anticipating the worst?

Well my city was bombed heavily and Ićve had recently had a team of demolition experts sweeping the terrain outside of my building, trying to find cluster bombs that might have stayed on from that period. However, I cannot but ask you have you a selective memory? Don't you remember what was being done in Kosovo at the time and that time by Milosevic-led forces.

It is a simplistic view - they simply bombed Serbia and innocent people died. I would say that the reaction is rather survival-centric.

Right, and it is a great survival strategy to define the greatest power in the world as your sworn enemy, when it is not na absolutely vital national interest.

Re: timeline

gordanac — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 06:31:51 GMT

I think that we should and must look forward and not backward.

and I agree
and we need to "turn back the turned time in a lot of heads", that is why I am mentioning "timeline", for the people who do not see because they do not want to see (the worst type of blindness)

first decide when we gained independence

...well, it seems that we had to do it at least - twice so far! :))
and it does have to do a lot with the lack of acceptance of the idea (quoted above) that we agree upon

Re: timeline

Milan Rakić — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 06:18:55 GMT

Well, first decide when we gained independence, in 1878 or in 2005 (as you say "in the last 6 years", and I dare to say that we share the time, except in some peoples mind's which are still tuned back some 200-300 years. However, lets change lanes, I think that we should and must look forward and not backward.

Re: Most of Serbs do agree...

DejanOz — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 05:02:30 GMT

SepultureroIt: is only people on this blog, as you can see from some of the comments on your article too, that can find nothing positive about Serbia. That is unfortunately also true for a large part of our so called elite. It is they who mostly have contact with outside world hence the bad image of Serbia.Fortunately I know quite few foreigners who have the same opinion as you wrote above so there is hope. Excellent article.

Well, it's kind of easy for the foreigners with nicely filled bank accounts and superannuation funds back home to feel good about that exotic home of rakija & gucha... Myself, I am frequently disgusted by the level of Serbophobia and the sheer hatred of anything Serbian that comes out of these pages. But we shouldn't be confusing the manipulative members of a certain party programmed to diss anything that comes from Serbian officialdom, with ordinary folks who are finding it very hard to see a brighter future for themselves in that country, and are still cueing in front of western embassies with a hope of having a crack at achieving a bit of that rotten western decadence for themselves.

Re: omnipotent branding

DejanOz — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 04:43:41 GMT

adam weisphaut
When many Serbian politicians are doing their best to keep the continuity with Milosevic's politics maybe they are not mistaken after all ?

Serbia is not Serbian politicians (although they'd undoubtedly love to think so).

please,

bauer — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 03:04:29 GMT

don't hate me because I am beautiful!

Re: I wish you had opened your account here...

Nate — Mon, 24 Sep 2007 22:19:52 GMT

silicuda
Yes many media in America label Serbia still warn torn, but you might want to ask yourself why?

Answer is very simple, because of the extreme corruption that exists in Serbia today -- until that is fixed they will continue to label it "warn-torn" because by definition warn-torn is a place where corruption exists after post-war.

The term is actually "war-torn".

Considering there are still bombed-out buildings in the heart of Belgrade almost across the street from the US Embassy, it's quite easy (and lazy) for the US media to say that Serbia is still a war-torn country. Having traveled to Serbia the past three summers, I can safely say that it is, indeed, still war-torn. Many scars from the NATO bombing still exist, not because of choice, but simply that most places can't afford to repair or tear them down.

I also agree that due to the huge amount of corruption that still exists within the country it's also easy for the US media to say that Milošević's influence still has firm grasp on the policies and politicians of the country. The fact that I run into Serbs here in Chicago who are still firmly in the camps of Milošević, Karadzić, and Mladić is quite astonishing to me. Then again, the same can be said for those who still support Bush here in the US.

That said, I found Serbia to be one of the most pleasant countries I have ever visited. I am seriously thinking about moving there in the future, just for the sheer potential that is there when the world finally realizes what a gem it is.