Serb Expats: What Would Make You Move Back to Serbia?

/ 21.10.2007. u 22:58

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As the political situation and the economy have eased in the past few years, a trickle of ex-patriots (Serb citizens who moved abroad) have begun to return. I know personally of three families in my circle alone and have received emails from several other returning Serb expats who read this blog.

I suspect the government would like to see the diaspora reversed even more. More expat retirees coming home to spend their last years and life savings living well in a land that's pretty cheap (as long as you stay out of downtown Belgrade.) Plus, more young workers with college degrees and experience in the Western business world who'll help lure more multinational companies to do business in Serbia.

If you are a former Serb citizen (or Yugoslav from the Serb area), what in your mind would make return-worthy conditions? Why and when will you move home again?

If you are someone who lived abroad and already returned, what made you come back?

As a foreigner who lives in Serbia part-time and as the step-mother of two young-adult Serbs who will be making the "which country?" decision soon, I'd be very genuinely interested to know. Thank you.

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andjelija 23:40 21.10.2007

a friend of a friend

moved back to belgrade after 7 years in US, and now, after 6 months he is going back to US. he tried some business in belgrade, and it didn't work out. market monopoly, amateurism and bribing in business (that he really didn't want to do) made him change his mind.

Sepulturero 16:19 22.10.2007

Re: a friend of a friend

This is exactly what happened to me except that I came from and returned to one of the countries in EU. Now I am going to stay here until my pension and shall return to Serbia later if dinar comes to a more normal exchange rate against euro. At the moment Serbia is too expensive because of an artificial exchange rate.

nsarski 23:50 21.10.2007

A friend

moved back to Belgrade after 15 years in the US. Had a successful restaurant in fancy part of NYC. Now has a successful restaurant in Belgrade. Lives like a king. Mostly by importing heavy industrial machinery from Europe.

andjelija 23:57 21.10.2007

Re: A friend

nsarski do you plan to go back?

nsarski 23:58 21.10.2007

Re: A friend

Yep,
as soon as I sell my house.

andjelija 00:01 22.10.2007

Re: A friend

after how long?

nsarski 00:06 22.10.2007

Re: A friend

Hard to tell:))
I've moved back and forth 3 times. I've lived in this country for more than 20 years altogether (between 1974 and now).

bauer 00:29 22.10.2007

Re: A friend

as soon as I sell my house.

The market is not so favorable these days. Maybe it would be better to rent it for some time?

Nietzsches Aprentice 00:02 22.10.2007

...

I guess I am still not officially an expat, given that I'm still "only studying" abroad, but since the moment for a decision is drawing nigh, I feel this is a good topic for me. I love Belgrade. I love the people that tie me to it, I love the places, I love the air on a spring afternoon, I love the slowdown it provides, an escape from the hectic west (and I wish, selfish as I am, it could remain like that forever). What I don't like is the fleeting feeling of helplessness and the feeling that I I can achieve more here where I am right now in terms of my career. I'm grossly romantic in my perception of life in Belgrade, a trait that silently creeps upon most of those on the other side of the border. The knowledge of this being so allows me not to make a rash decision that I might regret one day. However, if I could pick three things that I wish changed and some goldfish or a genie was present to oblige, I'd ask for the following:

-all current politicians to rot in some type of hell for all eternity (or, perhaps, 40-50 years), which would facilitate the occurrence of the next item
-people to snap the bleep out of the winter sleep they're in and take control over their lives
-Harley Davidson to open a dealership in Belgrade

I may be asking a lot (with the dealership), but, given how hard it is to find a genie these days, you really don't want to be modest when you find one.

nsarski 00:15 22.10.2007

Re: ...

-Harley Davidson to open a dealership in Belgrade

That's the ticket! Go back to Serbia, and open a H.D. dealership in Bg.! You'll live great life and make money at the same time.

andjelija 00:19 22.10.2007

Re: ...

and Indian :))

why all HD guys are short? or most of SUV drivers? macho think? ego? :)))

vucko 00:24 22.10.2007

Re: ...

-Harley Davidson to open a dealership in Belgrade

Is there still a Harley Davidson shop on the corner of 29. novembra and Emilijana Josimovića, Trg republike?

Nietzsches Aprentice 00:27 22.10.2007

Re: ...

nsarski
-Harley Davidson to open a dealership in Belgrade

That's the ticket! Go back to Serbia, and open a H.D. dealership in Bg.! You'll live great life and make money at the same time.

The idea is positively delightful! I may actually do that one day. I was thinking more like opening a microbrewery but the dealership also sounds interesting. The roar of the engine, thunderstorm a coming...

andjelija 00:31 22.10.2007

Re: ...

ohhh...I hate that ! :)))

bauer 00:34 22.10.2007

Re: ...

I was thinking more like opening a microbrewery but the dealership also sounds interesting.

Combination could be a killer? Now, I am tempted... seriously.

Nietzsches Aprentice 01:00 22.10.2007

Re: ...

Well, in reality, I do want to open a brew-pub in Belgrade at some point, I already have a name for the pub and for my signature ale and some ideas about a possible location and the interior design. Once I've saved up enough money I'll do an actual feasibility study and a marketing research... With a dealership right next door, I could get the unsuspecting customers properly buzzed before I do an actual sales pitch

ohhh...I hate that ! :)))

The sound?

andjelija 01:06 22.10.2007

Re: ...

Nietzsches Aprentice

ohhh...I hate that ! :)))

The sound?

yes :))

Nietzsches Aprentice 01:11 22.10.2007

Re: ...

You cannot be serious :) Next to that of a stratocaster, it has got to be the most beautiful sound ever :)

andjelija 01:17 22.10.2007

Re: ...

I don't know what stratocaster is, but when you guys pass by me with that sound, my body starts shaking and my (dearly beloved and very sensitive) ears gets totally annoyed. and then, I always visualize that muffler up in to riders ass (pard my language).

but I love the sound of formula one though :))

vucko 01:21 22.10.2007

Strato...?

AlexDunja 01:42 22.10.2007

Re: Strato...?

what???

vucko 01:51 22.10.2007

Re: Strato...?

Left handed? That's nothing, see this:

AlexDunja 02:06 22.10.2007

Re: Strato...?

idemo na gibson
les paul:)

vucko 02:15 22.10.2007

Les Paul?

AlexDunja 02:18 22.10.2007

Re: Les Paul?

taj

Cyber Domacica 09:22 22.10.2007

Re: ...

vucko
-Harley Davidson to open a dealership in BelgradeIs there still a Harley Davidson shop on the corner of 29. novembra and Emilijana Josimovića, Trg republike?

Nope...

Jelena Pavlović 11:22 22.10.2007

Re: ...

Don't worry about the Harley Davidson dealership, Miskovic has probably planed something as we speak.

Dragan Dujaković 01:43 23.10.2007

Re: ...

Nietzsches Aprentice
Well, in reality, I do want to open a brew-pub in Belgrade at some point...

Pa gde ces pored zive Kasine? - Why, with Casina still running?

m.agrippa 03:54 23.10.2007

Re: ...

I prefer the sound of the 6.1L HEMI.

nsarski 04:13 23.10.2007

Re: ...

Wow, imressive!

Ever considered Bradley with tinted glass?. And the roar! Wrrrrooooouuuummmmm!

Out of this world

and 100% safe. No one can touch you.

m.agrippa 11:03 23.10.2007

Re: ...

Oh come on! It would only serve as a weekend driver!

It's not like it's a 7.0L Chevy big block.

Galebar 16:04 25.10.2007

Re: ...

Miskovic rulez!!!
After Costa coffee shops thats his next go.

Mungos 00:09 22.10.2007

Nothing, and...

... here is why:

*Pijanstvo

Ne marim da pijem, al` sam pijan često.
U graji, bez druga, sam, kraj pune čaše.
Zaboravim zemlju, zaboravim mesto
Na kome se jadi i poroci zbraše.

Ne marim da pijem. Al` kad priđe tako
Svet mojih radosti, umoren, i moli
Za mir, za spasenje, za smrt ili pak`o,
Ja se svemu smejem pa me sve i boli.

I pritisne očaj, sam, bez moje volje,
Ceo jedan život, i njime se kreće;
Uzvik ga prolama: "Neće biti bolje,
Nikad, nikad bolje, nikad biti neće."

I ja žalim sebe. Meni nije dano,
Da ja imam zemlju bez ubogih ljudi,
Oči plave, tople kao leto rano,
Život u svetlosti bez mraka i studi.

I želeci da se zaklonim od srama,
Pijem, i zaželim da sam pijan dovek;
Tad ne vidim porok, društvo gde je čama,
Tad ne vidim ni stid što sam i ja čovek.

Vladislav Petkovic - Dis

*I deeply apologize to the author for the poem not presented in English. Just because it would loose most of its power in translation.

Mungos, The Human

"Who was bitten by snake, he gets scared even of a lizard!" (People from many corners of the world)

bauer 00:10 22.10.2007

R U kidding me?

what in your mind would make return-worthy conditions? Why and when will you move home again?

I don't see any conditions in foreseeable future that would make me return. Maybe when I retire? It won't make much difference in that case, anyway.

I keep posting this joke about an old man in Germany, he meets a countryman, a truck driver from his village in Serbia, and he asks him to give him a ride back to their village. The trucker asks him, why? I am tired of everything, I just want to go back and die in my country. So, the trucker gives him a ride.

After about a year, they meet again in the Serbian village, and the old man starts to cry to the trucker: Man, please take me back to Germany! Why, the trucker asks, didn't you want to come back to Serbia to die? The old man replies, I did want to come back to die, but I did not want to come back to LIVE!

vucko 00:16 22.10.2007

Education

Instead of elaborating my position on stay-or-return (which is mostly "stay", because of my wife's career), I would point to one single issue about the two step sons of yours.

It is their education. You may find Sombor great for living, and that's fine, but the two boys should have the opportunity to become able to choose where they'll live when they come to our age. And this probably means that they, if willing and able, should get a first-class education, which probably means some prestigious university in US (if your choice is US or Serbia). Our Belgrade University was fairly good 20 years ago, but I'm not sure about its rating now and how easy or hard would it be to move further, in global terms, once graduated there.

Nietzsches Aprentice 00:28 22.10.2007

Re: Education

Excellent point.

jumping_genes 01:20 22.10.2007

Re: Education

vucko
...Our Belgrade University was fairly good 20 years ago, but I'm not sure about its rating now and how easy or hard would it be to move further, in global terms...

Belgrade U. has not made the THES top 500 list in years. Certainly hasn't been on that list in the 21st century. As an example of how bad thigs are, #492 in 2006 was the University of Colombo, Sri Lanka!

Rosemary Bailey Brown 02:38 22.10.2007

Re: Education

Thanks for your input. Both of my step-children are in college in the USA now. We offered them the choice of whereever they wanted to go and they chose US colleges based on what was best for their intended majors. However, I know two professors at Belgrade University personally and believe they are top-notch in their fields (both in agriculture-related studies). US colleges are insanely expensive -- $24k per year for tuition average plus $10k for dormitory which is required at many -- so we were a bit jealous of Serb parents who get nearly free educations for their kids. I know for many the cost of paying for an apartment in Belgrade or Novi Sad during the school year can be tough. But US parents and kids go into hock for decades to pay for college which is required for even basic office jobs... anyway.

vucko 02:54 22.10.2007

Re: Education

Well my wife and I are currently preparing to pay $13k a year for the grammar school, net tuition. There are public schools also here in Glasgow, but the real estate market is very much aware of the good ones (catchment area issue)... reminds me to some lessons from the "Armchair economist" book.

ugly 03:04 22.10.2007

Re: Education

US colleges are insanely expensive -- $24k per year for tuition average plus $10k for dormitory which is required at many -- so we were a bit jealous of Serb parents who get nearly free educations for their kids.

You get what you pay for. Try a prestigious entry level position anywhere in the US starting at, say, $100K/yr and up with a degree from U. of Belgrade. Law, business, medical...you name it.

If anything is "insanely expensive" it is NOT to invest in your kids. After all, there are college loans. Once they've secured a good job in a lucrative field, those loans are easy to pay back.

miljanah 12:03 22.10.2007

Re: Education

jumping_genes
vucko
...Our Belgrade University was fairly good 20 years ago, but I'm not sure about its rating now and how easy or hard would it be to move further, in global terms...

Belgrade U. has not made the THES top 500 list in years. Certainly hasn't been on that list in the 21st century. As an example of how bad thigs are, #492 in 2006 was the University of Colombo, Sri Lanka!

This info is very interesting. Do you know if and where we can find THES ranking archives?
I did a (very) quick search, but no luck.
Thanks

Rosemary Bailey Brown 14:26 22.10.2007

Re: Education

$100k entry level? Not in any industry I know of. Only perhaps 15% of US workers with college degrees make that kind of cash (most of them are in sales so it's commissions) and it takes years, sometimes decades to work your way up that far. Plus, for legal, medical or top-level business jobs, advanced degrees are required. I'm not saying the investment is worth it, but I know people who are still paying off college debt until their 30s, at which time they start saving to pay for their kids' education. In other countries this isn't such a huge percent of income.

s56a 14:30 22.10.2007

Re: Education

Mathematics Gimnasium in Belgrade was very good as two kids passed entry exams at MIT, Yale and Harvard. Serbian University diploma wouldn't count much in USA. There are a lot of good USA programs in EU for shoping

I am retired but returning to Serbia from Slovenia would be suicide with the present state of their health care. I am also sceptical about the claims of big money being made in Serbia these days on regular business.

jumping_genes 17:11 22.10.2007

Re: Education

http://www.thes.co.uk/worldrankings/

This is the official website for the Times Higher Education Supplement (subscription req'd). While this is by no means the only list you'll ever see, the methodology is sound and authoritative, and for the sake of this argument going on here, it serves only the purpose of illustrating just how bad things are (going to be) when young citizens of Serbia start to compete on the global market in the future. I think we managed to dodge the bullet throughout the 90s riding the coat-tails of our higher education system's old glory, but this is what every one else is looking at nowadays.

Here's the top200:

Rank School Name Country
1 Harvard University United States
2 University of Cambridge United Kingdom
3 University of Oxford United Kingdom
4= Massachusetts Institute of Technology United States
4= Yale University United States
6 Stanford University United States
7 California Institute of Technology United States
8 University of California, Berkeley United States
9 Imperial College London United Kingdom
10 Princeton University United States
11 University of Chicago United States
12 Columbia University United States
13 Duke University United States
14 Peking University China
15 Cornell University United States
16 Australian National University Australia
17 London School of Economics and Political... United Kingdom
18 Ecole Normale Supérieure France
19= University of Tokyo Japan
19= National University of Singapore Singapore
21 McGill University Canada
22 University of Melbourne Australia
23 Johns Hopkins University United States
24 ETH Zurich Switzerland
25 University College London (UCL) United Kingdom
26 University of Pennsylvania United States
27 University of Toronto Canada
28 Tsing Hua University China
29= University of Michigan United States
29= Kyoto University Japan
31 University of California, Los Angeles United States
32 University of Texas at Austin United States
33= University of Hong Kong Hong Kong
33= University of Edinburgh United Kingdom
35= University of Sydney Australia
35= Carnegie Mellon University United States
37 École Polytechnique France
38 Monash University Australia
39 University of Geneva Switzerland
40 University of Manchester United Kingdom
41 University of New South Wales Australia
42 Northwestern University United States
43 New York University United States
44 University of California, San Diego United States
45 University of Queensland Australia
46= University of Auckland New Zealand
46= King's College London United Kingdom
48= Washington University in St. Louis United States
48= University of Rochester United States
50= University of British Colombia Canada
50= Chinese University of Hong Kong Hong Kong
52 Sciences Po Paris France
53 Vanderbilt University United States
54= Brown University United States
54= University of Copenhagen Denmark
56 Emory University United States
57 Indian Institute of Technology India
58= Hong Kong University of Science & Techno... Hong Kong
58= Ruprecht-Karls-Universität Heidelberg Germany
60 Case Western Reserve University United States
61= Dartmouth College United States
61= Nanyang Technological University Singapore
63 Seoul National University South Korea
64= Ecole Polytechnique Fédérale de Lausanne... Switzerland
64= University of Bristol United Kingdom
66 Boston University United States
67 Eindhoven University of Technology Netherlands
68 Indian Institute of Management India
69 University of Amsterdam Netherlands
70= School of Oriental and African Studies United Kingdom
70= Osaka University Japan
72 Ecole Normale Supérieure Lyon France
73 University of Warwick United Kingdom
74 Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México Mexico
75 University of Basel Switzerland
76 Catholic University of Louvain Belgium
77 University of Illinois United States
78 University of Dublin, Trinity College Ireland
79= University of Otago New Zealand
79= University of Wisconsin United States
81 University of Glasgow United Kingdom
82= Macquarie University Australia
82= Technische Universität München Germany
84 University of Washington United States
85 University of Nottingham United Kingdom
86 Delft University of Technology Netherlands
87 University of Vienna Austria
88 University of Pittsburgh United States
89 University of Lausanne Switzerland
90= University of Birmingham United Kingdom
90= Leiden University Netherlands
92 Erasmus University Rotterdam Netherlands
93= Université Pierre-et-Marie-Curie France
93= Lomonosov Moscow State University Russia
95 Utrecht University Netherlands
96 Catholic University of Leuven Belgium
97 Wageningen University Netherlands
98 Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität München Germany
99= Queen Mary, University of London United Kingdom
99= Pennsylvania State University United States
101 University of Southern California United States
102= Georgetown University United States
102= University of Sheffield United Kingdom
102= Rice University United States
105= University of Adelaide Australia
105= Humboldt-Universität zu Berlin Germany
105= University of Sussex United Kingdom
108 National Taiwan University Taiwan
109= University of Zurich Switzerland
109= University of St Andrews United Kingdom
111= University of Western Australia Australia
111= Wake Forest University United States
111= University of Maryland United States
111= Uppsala University Sweden
115 University of Twente Netherlands
116= University of Helsinki Finland
116= Fudan University China
118 Tokyo Institute of Technology Japan
119 Hebrew University of Jerusalem Israel
120 Keio University Japan
120* Université libre de Bruxelles Belgium
121 University of Leeds United Kingdom
122 Lund University Sweden
123 University of North Carolina United States
124= University of York United Kingdom
124= University of Massachusetts, Amherst United States
126 University of Aarhus Denmark
127 Purdue University United States
128= Nagoya University Japan
128= Kyushu University Japan
130= Tufts University United States
130= University of Virginia United States
132 Durham University United Kingdom
133= Hokkaido University Japan
133= University of Newcastle upon Tyne United Kingdom
133= Vrije University Brussels Belgium
133= University of Alberta Canada
137 Radboud Universiteit Nijmegen Netherlands
138 Vienna University of Technology Austria
139 University of Liverpool United Kingdom
140 Cranfield University United Kingdom
141= Cardiff University United Kingdom
141= University of Ghent Belgium
141= University of Southampton United Kingdom
141= University of California, Santa Barbara United States
145 Georgia Institute of Technology United States
146 RMIT University Australia
147= Chalmers University of Technology Sweden
147= Tel Aviv University Israel
149 Freie Universität Berlin Germany
150= Texas A&M University United States
150= Korea University South Korea
152 University of Notre Dame United States
153 University of Bath United Kingdom
154 City University of Hong Kong Hong Kong
155 McMaster University Canada
156= Curtin University of Technology Australia
156= Universität Göttingen Germany
158= Waseda University Japan
158= Universität Ulm Germany
158= Technion - Israel Institute of Technolog... Israel
161= Chulalongkorn University Thailand
161= Université Louis Pasteur - Strasbourg I France
163 Michigan State University United States
164 Saint-Petersburg State University Russia
165= State University of New York at Stony Br... United States
165= Université libre de Bruxelles Belgium
165= University of Science and Technology of ... China
168= George Washington University United States
168= Tohoku University Japan
170= Universität Tübingen Germany
170= University of California, Davis United States
172= Royal Institute of Technology Sweden
172= Rheinisch-Westfälische Technische Hochsc... Germany
172= Yeshiva University United States
172= University of Maastricht Netherlands
176 Queen's University Canada
177 University of Oslo Norway
178 University of Bern Switzerland
179 Shanghai Jiao Tong University China
180 Nanjing University China
181= Kobe University Japan
181= University of Montreal Canada
183= Jawaharlal Nehru University India
183= Vrije Universiteit Amsterdam Netherlands
185 Universiti Kebangsaan Malaysia Malaysia
186 University of Innsbruck Austria
187= University of Minnesota United States
187= Brandeis University United States
187= Universität Frankfurt am Main Germany
190= University of Barcelona Spain
190= University of Reading United Kingdom
192= Queensland University of Technology Australia
192= University of Malaya Malaysia
194 Technical University of Denmark Denmark
195 University of Aberdeen United Kingdom
196 University of Wollongong Australia
197 Università degli Studi di Roma - La Sapi... Italy
198= University of California, Irvine United States
198= Korea Advanced Institute of Science & Te... South Korea
200 Universite Paris-Sorbonne (Paris IV) France

and it goes all the way to 500. Not a single school from Serbia there (nor any of the former YU universities except for the U of Ljubljana, #418 in 2005).

marta l 18:50 22.10.2007

Re: Education

THES rankinggs

ugly 21:02 22.10.2007

Re: Education

$100k entry level?

Key word was "prestigious". Of course, there are jobs like that, but not on every corner and every industry. And even if you start with a lower salary, with a degree from a very good school you can advance very quickly. Not always the case with foreign degrees.

Plus, for legal, medical or top-level business jobs, advanced degrees are required.

You're right about graduate schools, but you can make a very good living with only two years of college, too. E.g., look at nursing schools. In just a few years after graduating from one of these programs, a nurse can easily make 50-60K, some even more. And there are more schools and jobs like that. No need for higher education or huge expenses if you can't afford it.

In other countries this isn't such a huge percent of income.

And how much do you really need to live comfortably? Stay away from the traps of consumerism, and you'll be fine. Learn how to balance your income vs spending. I know quite a few people in US that earn modestly, but live prudently and live well. Too many people believe it's OK to be in debt, but it's about individual choices and personal (financial) responsibility. Otherwise, be prepared to bear the consequences. I would not necessarily blame it on the society, only. Yes, America has put a price tag on everything, but the choice is all yours whether to take it or leave it. If one can't grasp those concepts, they'll struggle financially no matter where they are - in Serbia or US.

The bottom line is - the fact that education is less expensive in other countries doesn't mean that it is always the best way to go. My point was that such (financial) sacrifices are worth it, most of the time.

s56a 21:12 22.10.2007

Re: Education

The University of Ljubljana is an institution with a very rich tradition. With its more than 56,000 undergraduate and post-graduate students, it ranks among the biggest universities in the world scale. A total of 22 faculties, 3 academies of art and 1 university college employ approx. 3500 teaching and research staff, assisted by nearly 900 technical and administrative staff.

Small country, BIG University

Number of diplomants doubled to 12% recently but 46% are on social sciences.

m.agrippa 04:01 23.10.2007

Re: Education

Canada has some of the best universities in the world (McGill, Toronto, Queen's, Carleton...) and the tuition is ridiculously low ($4000-$4500 a year, non-medical majors), given that all universities are public. If you want a top-notch education without filing for bankruptcy / paying off your loans for decades, Canada is the best choice.

University of Toronto
McGill

s56a 11:17 23.10.2007

Re: Education

Biased alumni

Bahamas are also good with better clima!

m.agrippa 01:22 24.10.2007

Re: Education

Hahaha, no...

I think that even if it was not as cheap as it is, it would still be an awesome option to consider... For crying outloud, community colleges in the U.S. cost 5 times as much. Not to mention that the government is ready & willing to fork over for your education at low interest rates w/ a 6-month grace period upon graduation.

You've got top-notch libraries, research facilities, equipment, lecturers... You get to travel (I did anyway) for cheap doing a year abroad... Possibilites are endless -- for $4500 a year! You can earn your B.A. for under $20,000, whereas ONE year in the U.S. costs $30,000 (tuition alone). And the U.S. universities aren't that much better.

What I didn't like was the textbook cartel. The bookstores charge(d) an arm and a leg for the textbooks and offer(ed) you 20% of the price if you were dumb enough to sell them back to the bookstore after using them for 3 months. The government should cap the price at $75 per book and subsidize those costing more than 75. I've seen books cost more than $200 (business/finance majors know this all too well).

andjelija 00:45 22.10.2007

I think

I would move back but only if I don't have to live there all the time. I need space, variety, diversity to be 'normal'....

6 months in belgrade and 6 months in US with one month stops in Europe, S. america...maybe to see the land of LOTR's...those sheep's and mountains...

nsarski 01:55 22.10.2007

Re: I think

andjelija
I would move back but only if I don't have to live there all the time. I need space, variety, diversity to be 'normal'....

6 months in belgrade and 6 months in US with one month stops in Europe, S. america...maybe to see the land of LOTR's...those sheep's and mountains...

That's exactly the kind of moving back that I have in mind! 6 months in the US is too much. Boring. 1 month for the US + 5 months everywhere else.

ugly 00:46 22.10.2007

brains & beauty

Let's get real. Anyone content with their social and professional status abroad has no incentive to move back.

Short of analyzing the current state of affairs in Serbia, just look around this blog, read comments by some of those who live in Serbia and how they feel about those abroad (or anything abroad for that matter). Words such as conservative, aggressive, xenophobic come to mind. I'd like to believe that those are in minority, but the voices of reason are too often stifled. Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups...

jumping_genes 01:13 22.10.2007

Re: brains & beauty

Let's get real. Anyone content with their social and professional status abroad has no incentive to move back.

And that's the short of it... Quite honestly, I think that I would have left Serbia even if it hadn't been for all the misery of the 90s, and the bad still (way) outweighs the good...

Vasa S Tajcic 02:43 22.10.2007

Re: brains & beauty

Everything “ugly” said is right. The resentment towards Serbs leaving abroad is very annoying. I find that this resentment comes mostly from self proclaimed liberals and democrats. Such comments used to bother me when I visited Serbia in 2001 after I spent 10 years outside. After two days I realized that I should not give a f@#$ what some self proclaimed intellectuals thing of my immigration status and definitely should not engage in any discussions with such people. As Seinfeld said “the best revenge is living well”

I have to say this is one of the best subjects on this blog in months.

nsarski 03:09 22.10.2007

Re: brains & beauty

Well, why do you care what other people say? Live your own life.
Anybody in your position would be crazy to go back - Canada and/or the US is much better for people starting family or a career.
To anybody who plans to move back to Serbia and has to work there for living, my advice is - don't. Serbia is great for fun when the weather is good.
And, oh, if you have no other but Serbian passport - then definitely forget about moving back. You'd be stuck in prison, with Velja Ilic and the likes the prison guards.

Vasa S Tajcic 02:26 22.10.2007

Canadian Serb

I live in Canada and I am not planning to come back any time soon. Wife and I worked very hard to build careers here and it would be stupid to throw it all away. We are insurance and investment professionals and these industries are only starting now in Serbia. We spent 2 years in Madrid and London working for a Canadian company, but we like it much better in Canada. The other very important reason is that we have small children and as it stands now, it is better for them to grow up in this kind of environment.

We visit Serbia every year for at least a month. We spend 2 weeks visiting families (Belgrade, Novi Sad and Nis) and the rest of the time we do our own thing. Basically drive around.

Anyway, corruption and lack of law and order are good enough reasons

Pulse 04:11 22.10.2007

probably never

I don't think I will ever come back to live there. I find it ok to visit but only for a few weeks. Every time I go back it reminds me how much I would not want to live in Serbia. What I find difficult to deal with is the mentality of the people and that will never change.

DejanOz 05:30 22.10.2007

Staying on the Shiraz Street

I think I've become an Aussie, so help me God. And it's not about the money (of which I have none), nor the career (I've lost my job recently... not for long I hope). I just love this country, the diesel and dust and all. I love walking into a pub where working class people gobble on beer after work while AC/DC (or akkadakka as they are known in these areas) are blasting out of the juke box. I can't go back to Ceca, or even worse, the warmed-up Croatian pop (*shudder*). I love watching the leading politicians debating in a civilised manner on the TV, watching that little "worm" (an animated arrow on the screen that points up or down as to how the voters are perceiving what the candidate is presently talking about). And then forgoing the major parties altogether and voting for the left-of-field Greens (which still have a chance of getting into the parliament, unlike in Serbia). I love the cities here, the fancy Melbourne especially, that Greek capital outside Greece. The city where Nick Cave came from (they are just putting up an exhibition about his life down there). Actually, he's from a country town nearby - and I love the country life too. I like them "cowboys" - that drive big old mean "utes" (ute is short for a "utility" vehicle, the same as "pick-up" elsewhere). At the top of the hood they usually put a huge big pair of cow horns. And in the back they have no less than 2 or 3 cheerful and agile sheep dogs that can't wait for the ute to stop so that they can jump out (but are usually told to "stay put", while the owner is out shopping, and then they look at you with those sad big eyes, as if saying "will you come and play with me?"

And then the owners walk out (I never understood how they are actually able to walk in and out of the vehicle without removing those huge wide-brimmed cowboy hats?!) They usually have goaties and mullet haircuts that went away with the 80s (but not here). They look tough, but they are unbelievably polite and patient. I guess living around lotsa sheep does that to you. I love Sydney too, the one referred to as the "Big Smoke" - which it often is, not the least because of the forest fires (known as "bushfires" in this neck of the woods) that so frequently engulf it. And I even love that oh-so-circular city of Canberra, the nominal capital where the PM doesn't like to spend too much time. I love the weekends, I love reading the papers that are as wide as the couch when you open them. I love those opinion columns that refer to the philosopher Peter Singer just as often as to Kylie Minogue's underpants. That's my style of thinking. How can I leave all that? Even if Serbia is as exciting and crazy as it is - but I've seen it all before. Too much of it, I guess.

ugly 06:15 22.10.2007

Re: Staying on the Shiraz Street

The city where Nick Cave came from

Actually, Nick was born here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warracknabeal
but Melbourne is where it all started... You got my recommendation just for mentioning him (not that I disagree with other stuff you said). One of the best shows ever (Chicago 1998 @ "The Metro"

.

http://metrochicago.com/history/TL98.html
http://metrochicago.com/rental

stevie 23:47 23.10.2007

Re: Staying on the Shiraz Street

The city where Nick Cave came from

but was smart enough to leave early and try out berlin and sao paolo, and to settle down with the london aristocracy...
not a stranger to good humor, either. check out "drugove" jarvis and your aussie jason:

DejanOz 02:06 24.10.2007

Re: Staying on the Shiraz Street

stevie
...but was smart enough to leave early and try out berlin and sao paolo, and to settle down with the london aristocracy...

(I hope that Rosemary will forgive this short troll)
Very recently, he had this to say: "I miss Melbourne a lot"... The whole Grinderman image was built very much on the "bushranger" image, and Nick always said how he is fascinated with the Australian folk hero Ned Kelly (a bushranger that got hung in Melbourne in the late 19th century - a character amazingly similar to our own "hajduci"

. His 2005 film "The Proposition" was set (and filmed) in Australia, and shows the same kind of edgy and rather extreme view of violence, religion and human psychology you find in his lyrics.

But I just mentioned him as a very famous example of something that I can see around Australia: there's an amazing number of incredibly talented people (especially in rock music) you'll never hear about. Some of them are no less talented than Cave, just less lucky. That's one of the reasons why many have to leave, the "industry" in Australia is incredibly tough to get into, it seems that a few "grey eminences" are arbitrarily deciding which music will be recorded and possibly the best talent remains uncrecognised by that "industry". My current favourites, The Drones, are hardly ever heard of in Australia, although they have a cult following in Europe and the US.

Srki 07:42 22.10.2007

moving back?

Why are you asking that question? Are you sure about yourself, that you are where you belong? Fed up of Serbia, already? Rose, I am just kidding with you, but it is interesting observation on how people are "moving back". I think you made it all up, right? ;-). I have different question for you: do you really live in Serbia, or you are fooling us all around? Do you watch TV? Do you read newspapers? Do you know how difficult is to get a job and how easy to loose it? Did you ever go to see a doctor? Do you ever take a bus ride? Do you even ever talk to ordinary people? Or you are on some kind of mushrooms when you write these blogs?

Look, there is no need to bullshit us all - we lived there, without part-time US paycheck in our valets (without valets, as a matter of fact), without US/EU passport to travel anywhere, with no money for rent, living with ill parents that cannot afford medical treatment. Without job, with hyperinflation, with bombs falling on our heads, with police beating shit out of us, and now with all these filthy rich vampires coming back to power that they actually never lost, to eat our children lives, after successfully eating ours. Didn't you see that vulture that appeared out of blue on the Serbian parliament balcony few days ago, "representing interests of Cuba"?! I mean, Kusturica couldn't make such a movie like Serbia is today, with all the chicken and white horses. Horror!

I could go like this on and on, I think anybody could... Anybody I know, who went to college, did it with only one aim - to get a hell out of there! It is about the same now, with 10 years younger kids. So please stop - better offer some contacts, American girls / guys nice as you are, available for marriage for papers, if you know anybody ;-). We become really good citizens!

Here is my situation: I have bunch of friends totally stuck in Serbia, no, no, not Serbia - in Belgrade! If you live in the rest of Serbia you are really stuck! They are all highly educated, threatening to kill me with their bare hands if I ever mention possibility of coming back! Some of them even work for US companies, have salaries, but nobody of them is fool to believe it is going to last. I haven't seen anybody even close to a happiness and all of them seek for any opportunity to leave the damn country. Like lot of us did. It is not because of some temporary "transitional" difficulties but because long time ago Serbia became country of "dziberi" or better "dzukci". And in my opinion, normal person have no chance to survive there unless becomes part of the herd...I stood there as long as I could (even now I fly to Chicago to vote), but like many others, after long and thorough looking, I saw only one solution: to go anywhere, as far as possible from that shitty place.

And all that bullshit about how Belgrade is greatest place in the world one can sell to someone else - I was born there, lived there for 30 years, I come there every other summer, and I love it for a week until I am done with burek, pljeskavice and couple of friends, then I hate it for the rest of the year! It eats people alive. Everything is fake, laughs are superficial, people are fundamentally hopeless, or looking for ways to screw up someone else. As one friend of mine who lives now in France said after visiting Belgrade - people are poisoned. Each of my friends has a life story that would make you cry, and if I could, I would bring them all here in US, or anywhere else.

So Rose, please, cut the crap. Serbia, as is, sucks big time, and your fairy tales won't fix it. Telling people how it is not that bad just makes us feel like retards. Once they admit - yes, it is bad, real bad, unbearable bad, then we are on a good track to see what can be done.

To answer your question - If we resurrect one man that was killed by the abovementioned dogs, and give him hands open to work for 10 years, then I would think of returning to Serbia, like I was thinking when he was alive. So, I guess that means - never.

My message for those who are considering going back to Serbia: don't! If you don't like where you are, think twice. Then go somewhere else. And if you do chose Serbia, don't tell I didn't warn you ;-).

Pozdrav.

Rosemary Bailey Brown 14:39 22.10.2007

Re: moving back?

Wow, so I guess for you it's "will the last person out of Serbia please turn off the lights?" Maybe we can get a bulk rate discount by all moving to Australia en masse. ;-)

ugly 21:14 22.10.2007

Re: moving back?

To answer your question - If we resurrect one man that was killed by the abovementioned dogs, and give him hands open to work for 10 years, then I would think of returning to Serbia, like I was thinking when he was alive. So, I guess that means - never.

My message for those who are considering going back to Serbia: don't! If you don't like where you are, think twice. Then go somewhere else. And if you do chose Serbia, don't tell I didn't warn you ;-).

If anyone was ever to write an encyclopedia about the modern Serbain exodus, this entire post deserves a chapter in such book (so do some others here). I'm sad and moved, cause I recognize many personal experiences in these words.

And to those hopeful that Serbia some day will be a decent place to live, I wish the best of luck, but we have only one life to live.

"Hope is the worst of evils, for it prolongs the torments of man." (Friedrich Nietzsche)

DejanOz 03:29 23.10.2007

Re: moving back?

Rosemary Bailey Brown
Maybe we can get a bulk rate discount by all moving to Australia en masse. ;-)

I don't know about the discount, but certainly would recommend people to consider moving to Australia if they can. There's plenty of work available here if you have the right skills, the unemployment is at a record low. I don't know how long that will last (certainly not forever) but at this moment it is not a bad time to come to Australia (especially to Western Australia, which is undergoing an unprecedented economic boom thanks to exports of all the resources that are fueling the giantic economies of China and India). So where the bloody hell are you? ;-)

Srki 05:43 24.10.2007

Re: moving back?

Well, I have better idea. Why don't you take all those people that are happy in Serbia now, led by their embarrassing government and take them all to Australia with you? Or to Tasmania, even better! Then you can drop them there and come back (because we love you!). Having in mind numbers, probably you won't get big discount, but you will do a huge favor to those who are left. And you can include all these passive and active radicals, spsialists, quasinationalists, qusiintelectuals and quasibusinessmen, their tycoon sponsors, religious leaders and other death-eaters - I heard from my friends who live in Australia: the country is craving for new roads and mines in the Midland - they might become a powerful work force, if they beat them enough! Dammit, perhaps I should hate the fact that I have so many friends that escaped Serbia all over the world, to hear these facts...

Anyway, I didn't mean to make anybody sad here - my personal story is like thousand others, while your story is extremely rare and obviously misleading, despite you clearly good intentions. It is ok, you don't know me personally, but believe me, I am probably the most optimistic among all my friends - proof is that I actually decided to take my own destiny in my hands, the best way I could, and I am immensely happy with that decision and the consequences. I just hope the what is left of decent people in Serbia will do the same - to leave or to fight, I don't really care, but not to be stupid to buy your crap and get stuck in your virtual reality forever! Just look at your own hypocritical situation - your step children are gone to US to school? Do you really think they will chose to live in Serbia after they are done with school?

Oldtimer or Callin_bgd are right in my opinion - the reason why I am wasting my time arguing with you on this blog is not my sublimed desire to come back. I am done with Serbia, even my mom knows that! I have an American girlfriend for many years, she was in Serbia and even she understands that it is good place to visit, but totally terrible place to live in. I don't even have any desire to go there for vacation! But I did a lot of thinking and believe me - I am not selfish, I truly wish at least as good life as mine to all my friends and countrymen, known and unknown, if not even better. Because I know that I am not any better then anybody of them, in any way. I just got lucky and maybe had balls to chose right at some point in time. That is all, and I really hate that feeling that so much depends on some luck and little bit of courage!!!. As much as I deserve decent life I have now, my friends and family does. But closing their eyes is not good way, trust me! Milosevic was removed from power when people once had it enough. I think, if some change has to happen, people have to have it enough again. Having them believing how it is good, or at least not so bad, because they don't dig the thrash cans (yet) or because some poor soul decides to come back to Serbia, is a counter favor. Or supporting them in believe that they are special in the way they think they are (remember the stupid and to any inteligent man condescending list "how do you know..." you cited in the last blog, or idiotic comment how California has the largest Serbian population due to demographic move of "Serbian software engineers"?). You have no idea how much that self indulgence costs people there!
Making them pissed off on the life they have in Serbia and educating them who is responsible for that and reminding them that they actually have a choice (with or without elections) is the only way, in my humble opinion...

s56a 09:39 24.10.2007

Re: moving back?

Srki, you have become classic rightwing conservative immigrant teaching poor people back home! I am glad RBB discovers Serbia with open eyes and shares her experience. Including bidgets

Srki 16:20 24.10.2007

Re: moving back?

s56a
Srki, you have become classic rightwing conservative immigrant teaching poor people back home! I am glad RBB discovers Serbia with open eyes and shares her experience. Including bidgets

. I should be happy you didn't call me a neocon or a fascists! Why, for pointing how it actually is there, or saying what I think that should be done to improve?
Look, I think you don't know what you are talking about declaring people "rightwing" or "conservative", without giving some arguments. I'd guess it is because you don't have them. Therefore it's just a claptrap on your part, in my opinion, so let's stay on the subject, if we can. I disagree with you with regarding RBB's eye-state, that's why I was complaining here...I think she just loves her husband very, very much to follow him to Serbia

.

Anyway, I wish you all best.

s56a 20:29 24.10.2007

Re: moving back?

I've seen few successful Serbs becoming racist in UK but I used milder term on you. It is so easy to smart about Serbian faults from confortable West. 85% of Serbian people live in the international getto without being much aware of it.

Moving out of USA is rarely life improvement. Except Caribean and Hawaii

nsarski 21:34 24.10.2007

Re: moving back?

Except Caribean and Hawaii

Mar Carribe we can do. With pleasure, I might add.
Hawaii is still in the US, last time I checked. Watsamatter, sudoku getting the upper hand on you?

ugly 21:53 24.10.2007

Re: moving back?

Srki, you have become classic rightwing conservative immigrant teaching poor people back home! I am glad RBB discovers Serbia with open eyes and shares her experience. Including bidgets

Stating the facts in a way that for some may be unpleasant or even rude awakening has, by no means, elements of "right wing conservative" by any definition of r.w.c. If anything is right wing conservative, it is an intoxicating form of nationalism, xenophobia and regressive thinking that still permeates these blogs, coming even from supposedly educated and smart Serbs (some of them members of B92 flaming you on another blog for openly criticizing Serbian state of affairs or praising the western knowledge and experience).

In order for Serbia to become a better place, which may take a life time, a huge overhaul in behavior and thinking is a must, preferably founded in reality. Srki's post is nothing but exposing that reality.

s56a 22:40 24.10.2007

Re: moving back?

Da li znas nabrojati sva USA ostrva u Karibima? Ima ih samo 5

nsarski 23:20 24.10.2007

Re: moving back?

Ne znam da ih nabrojim offhand, tek tako. Znam da ima ostrva na koja pretenduju (kao sto su i na Havaje pretendovali, pa ih najzad i uzese - i btw, onaj bulshit koji prodaju za 9/11 da je to prvi napad na teritoriju usa od Perl Harbora - to je ordinarna laz, Havaji tada nisu bili njihova teritorija vec protektorat), pretenduju, dakle, kao sto je Portoriko, Haiti, Dominiku vec drze ozxbiljno, na Kubu se oblizuju (i imaju ukradenu bazu u Gvantanamu - lease im je davno istekao, ali oni se prave blesavi), ali to nije bitno.
Meni su meksicki Karibi zanimljivi, tu imam gde da boravim. Za malog coveka dovoljno.

Srki 02:22 25.10.2007

Re: moving back?

ugly

Stating the facts in a way that for some may be unpleasant or even rude awakening has, by no means, elements of "right wing conservative" by any definition of r.w.c. If anything is right wing conservative, it is an intoxicating form of nationalism, xenophobia and regressive thinking that still permeates these blogs, coming even from supposedly educated and smart Serbs (some of them members of B92 flaming you on another blog for openly criticizing Serbian state of affairs or praising the western knowledge and experience).

In order for Serbia to become a better place, which may take a life time, a huge overhaul in behavior and thinking is a must, preferably founded in reality. Srki's post is nothing but exposing that reality.

Hey Znoru, thanks for the clarification and backing me up, when I listen them I feel like they all ran out of a nut house... ;-). I hate to say this buy I am under impression that Srba has a slight draft in his head related to this subject, maybe caused by Rose's blowing

. So I'll chill out ;-)... cause I can ;-). Maybe he could prove I am wrong if he addresses the arguments (hahaha, yeah right!), but at least I can say it is far less hypocritical to sit in a "western" country and puke on current Serbian situation, then to sit in a "western" country and admire the same situation. Perhaps he is one of the candidates for abovementioned transport to Tasmania ;-).

Enjoy.

s56a 06:48 25.10.2007

Re: moving back?

Mene su odrali na Sanibel ostrvu ali je bar gospodja nakupila puno skoljki! Puerto Rico u lepom secanju, posebno antena u Arecibo.

Zaboravih da te pohvalim za konstruktivnu kritiku povratka u Srbiju. Ovi mladji otkrili Ameriku pa se prave pametni

Krecem ka jugu kroz jedna sat...

Dragan Pavlicevic 08:01 22.10.2007

Great post as usual

It is amazing how you can always bring forward topics that resonate with Serbs, really...

Here is the bottom line for even considering moving back :

1.) Changes in politics - clear national programme, transparency and - first of all above- fresh, trustworthy, leaders - so we know where we stand, where we aim to be and can anticipate what tomorrow brings
2.) Meritocracy and Professionalism ( as opposed to nepotism now) - so we know that our contribution & hardwork will lead to personal benefits and better life
3.) Transparent biz rules - so we know that our investement in establishing and running private businesses will not suffer at the hands of corruption and market monopolists
4.) (Revolutionary) Improvements in education - so we know that Serbia will tomorrow be better place, not worse and that amateurism of today will be changed for strong sense of responsibility and need for achievement and contribution tomorrow

which brings me to point 5, in my opinion BY FAR the most important one and point of departure for all above:

5.) Change of values - so Serbian people start to appreciate knowledge not arrogance, dialogue not ignorance, skills not force, flexibility not stuborness, etc.

Some points might seem up in the air and abstract but really do shape everyday life. Unfortunatelly, all tragically far from being realistic anytime soon.

so plan B - if I'd got homesick one day - would be to receive a good offer with excellent expat conditions :))))

Rosemary Bailey Brown 14:41 22.10.2007

Re: Great post as usual

Probably a really stupid question, but I am going to ask anyway, how can any of these things happen? Is it just a matter of time, probably longer than any of us want to wait but time nevertheless?

s56a 14:58 22.10.2007

Re: Great post as usual

This is already happening in Slovenia thanks to EU and NATO but Serbia is at least a decade behind in the getto. Though great tomatos

Brief light was turned off on March 12th, 2003.

Dragan Pavlicevic 20:55 22.10.2007

Re: Great post as usual

Key question, how can this hapen?

Very easy, it needs serbian opinion leaders and above all political leaders to understand that these 5 points/ changes above will benefit Serbia not only in long run but actually in immediate future and start promoting these values... The influence of meadia and practice ( practice= let's say Velja Ilic is dismissed from his post first time he makes a violent attack on any journalist or whatever wherever when he damages the image of national leader that anywhere whenever needs to serve as a role model...) would do.

And of course that public widely starts to push for these change as well.... This blog as well, that indeed pushes for changes, but, unfortunately, often hosts blind confrontation instead of constructive dialogue.

What do you think?

neverlander 11:54 22.10.2007

NOTHING!

nothing

mvj 16:01 22.10.2007

expats

I am an intellectual property attorney in Boston, USA (married to an American with two little kids). Both my husband and I want to go live in Serbian if not "forever" than for at least for a few years, but here are things that I'd need to know are there before we go back:
- Emergency medical response teams have to be as good as they are in the west (my kids have allergies and I have to know that at any given point they are only minutes away from medical care like they are in the US);
- I would only move back if I could be gainfully employed making at least 80% the salary I make here (Belgrade is hardly a cheap city and I don't think it would be possible for me to get a job in some other, smaller city as a US trained corporate/IP attorney);
- Service oriented businesses are excellent in the west and they tend to be available 24/7, so that's one of the elements that plays into our decision;
- Serbs in Serbian (on average, there are exceptions) need to learn how to be more polite. It's quite annoying to come from the west and deal with people who don't know the basic rules of common courtesy that kids in the west learn in the 1st grade;
- Pollution is a big problem in larger Serbian cities, so it'd be nice if the government could outlaw leaded gasoline, which would significantly contribute to cleaner air like it did in the US;
- Good schools (I suppose we would "settle" for a private school, if we had no other options);

The above are the biggest factors for us.

Cheers,
MVJ
Boston, MA, USA

oldtajmer 16:57 22.10.2007

Very Simple

For me, it's very simple: When Serbia becomes a safe place for myself, my family and my investments. It is nowhere near that today.

m.agrippa 03:52 23.10.2007

Moving back!

I don't think I need a particular reason to move back (which I am planning on doing, btw). Four or five of my friends have moved back during the past year or so and they're loving every minute of it. I will be getting married soon and I wouldn't want my kids to be born/growing up anywhere else. (Hey, this is good enough for a 'good reason', isn't it?)

Leaving a well-paid job (albeit a very boring one) is something worth thinking about, but the possible pros/rewards are too great to ignore.

What bugs me personally -- and this might sound very trivial to many of you -- is the tendency of the government(s) back home to poke around people's personal, daily lives and the choices they (wish to) make.

For example, consider the extra tax or whatever fees they're charging if you're an owner of a car with an engine over 1.5L / 1500cm3. I depend on my car here, and I'm pretty certain that I will be dependent on it when I move back. Since I wouldn't be caught DEAD in a Yaris and the plethora of similar other "cars", I was planning on shipping my car over to Serbia.

I still haven't bought it as it will become available next spring, but I can only imagine the look on a bureaucrat's face when I tell him/her it's a Dodge Challenger with the 5.8L / 5800cm3 (or the 6.1L - still not sure) engine. I spy a brain aneurysm. (If the Challenger becomes available in Serbia, I'd save a tonne of cabbage though -- or not, since the Big 3 cars are way overpriced back home).

If anyone has any info on these fees/taxes/surcharges, I would appreciate it immensely.

s56a 11:29 23.10.2007

Re: Moving back!

Since I wouldn't be caught DEAD in a Yaris and the plethora of similar other "cars", I was planning on shipping my car over to Serbia.

You might end up dead faster in big Dodge thanks to mafia! Serbian roots for 21st century kids are VERY important.

You chose boring political profession! It was fun for 37 years in electronics and computers.

BTW I moved from big 2501 cm3 Chrysler to small 1400 cm3 Hyundai Getz with the same 97 KS but I must admit I don't feel as safe as before. There are excellent safe EU cars but they are more expensive than USA tanks.

Colin_bgd 10:51 23.10.2007

When hell freezes over, and not even then.

There wasn't a country in the modern history in Europe that has taken so much from its citizens, and have given back so little. And this trend is always increasing.

After all, I do not consider myself an ex-pat. I was born and have lived in Belgrade for most of my life, but the country where I was born does not exist anymore. I am not prepared to trade my freedom that life in the UK has given me (in every aspect) to become a slave of serbian state orthodox fundamentalism. There isn't a peg strong enough that could pinch my nose and prevent the stench of lies, corruption, murder, nepotism, mediocrity, backwardness, illiteracy, backstabbing, hate, fear, envy, and greed to enter my sensitive nostrils. And this is only the description of people that live in my old appartment block (i.e. "ulaz"

.

The fact is that Serbia is much better off getting rid of people like us, who you have so incorrectly named ex-pats. Without us they can wallow in the myre at leisure and exercise modern day slavery onto the rest of population who is not capable of distingushing friend from foe, and who is always acting like a voluntary lamb to the slaughter.

So, Serbia cannot give me anything that I need or want. Furthermore, Serbia has taken away from me everything that I ever had, and is still hungry for my blood. There is no way that a sane person would make such a decision to return back to that dungeon of human spirit, and torturer of human soul that Serbia today is, and that will remain (unfortunately) for a long, long time to come.

ps. Make no mistake, anyone that has returned is going to say that it is great and that they are loving it, when in fact they are hating every minute of it. But that is exactly the problem, we never say what we mean, never show what we feel, and are never true even to ourselves, let alone others. Self delusional nation in the last stages of self destructive mental illness... Return at your own peril, and leave every hope at the door.

m.agrippa 11:17 23.10.2007

Re: When hell freezes over, and not even t

Wow. What the hell makes you so negative? If this isn't autophobia, it certainly borders on it... I never expected anything from my country (or any other) - maybe that's why my outlook is positive. "Freedom" (whatever that means) and comfort are safe, and safe gets tired after a while. I need a change / challenge.

regards

Colin_bgd 12:00 23.10.2007

Re: When hell freezes over, and not even t

I am not negative, nor am I autophobic (?!?) or ashamed by the fact that I am a serb from Serbia. But this doesn't mean we should be painting untrue picture. This is how it is, nothing more and nothing less. If it changes fine, but having spent ten years demonstrating through the streeets of Belgrade, all I have gained is a police batton in the kidneys, and the realisation that everything is futile since people are not only accepting to live in total darkness, but they are actively choosing it and supporting it.

Serbia is not a case of glass half empty half full, let's have a debate. The glass is not only empty, but totally broken, all there is is a shattered glass. I do not wish splinters in my soles anymore, so I am walking different streets these days.

Also, if you put freedom in inverted commas, that only means that you have never experienced even a small amount of it, otherwise you would not be so sarcastic. I am not saying that I have absolute freedom, or even lots of it. But I can certainly have much, much more control AND responsibility over my own life than Serbia would ever even consider for its citizens, let alone allow it.

Here I have contract with "the Queen": I pay her taxes most of the times, she leaves me alone most of the time. Fair playing field for everybody, most of the time. If you think there is more, think again, and look around how much you really have today in Serbia.

blue rider 15:07 23.10.2007

Re: When hell freezes over, and not even t

Colin, my man, i can agree with you on most of the topics, but please alow me to tell you to fuck off when you're saying shit like - all Serbia gave you was a police bat on the back. Aa participant of all of those protests i can tell you that you're full of shit and please don't use that in future.

I don't know what you're doing up there, but Serbia gave you, at least, some education and a spirit that you can now enjoy life in Uk without any difficulties (socialy). And besides, what the fuck are you doing reading and comenting on blogs here? Where people are shit?

I am not a pro-serb oriented guy, i am even not a serb. But i want to tell you that things are seldom or never black or white. The reason that you're visiting these pages is that you're still interested and want to see if positive shit will happen - so that you might come back. Right?

On the other side, god bless you and your queen man, but the world has changed, A LOT. And there are so many options to choose from, it's fantastic. If you're sticking to the old SERBIA gastarbeiter way, then it doesn't matter where you are - you might as well be at home.

oldtajmer 15:58 23.10.2007

Re: When hell freezes over, and not even t

m.agrippa
Wow. What the hell makes you so negative?

Negative?? I think most of what he wrote is verbatim true. Perhaps it's experience that made him so "negative"?

blue rider
Colin, my man, i can agree with you on most of the topics, but please alow me to tell you to fuck off when you're saying shit like - all Serbia gave you was a police bat on the back. Aa participant of all of those protests i can tell you that you're full of shit and please don't use that in future.

What are you saying? That this never happened? Police did NOT beat people on the streets?

I don't know what you're doing up there, but Serbia gave you, at least, some education and a spirit that you can now enjoy life in Uk without any difficulties

Wrong again, the education focus was a product of communism/socialism, and you can see the same thing in all ex-Eastern Block countries. The "spirit" you refer to is a spirit of SFRJ, not Serbia. He did say in the very first sentence that "his country no longer exists". I read this as Serbia (of today) gave him nothing. The country that gave him something is SFRJ.

oldtajmer 16:01 23.10.2007

Re: When hell freezes over, and not even t

P.S. This is a theme I see time and again on these blogs. There is clearly a disconnect btw ex-pats who left during the hardest of hard-core Milosevic years and all others. We, the former, are much more bitter, cynical, and less inclined to every trust that state again. There was even a blog on the subject recently (in Serbian, and Cyrillic at that, sorry Rosemary).

Colin_bgd 16:21 23.10.2007

Re: When hell freezes over, and not even t

Blue rider:

When you read a Shakespeare play (for example), you do not read digested interpretation of it afterwards in order to understand it. In other words, read between the lines.

Also, the simple fact that you are using 40-year old terms (like gastarbeiter) to explain movement of people in the modern world, and in Europe without borders, only shows that the modern world is not understood in Serbia, and that it is exactly because we do not want to diagnose the problem we are not using the correct (or any) cure.

Of course, I would like to see Serbia become normal and prosperous country, but that has nothing to do with stating exactly what you see in front of your own eyes.

The original question of this blog is what would make you move back to Serbia? I could have answered hypothetically or realistically, so I have chosen to be sincere. I am not suggesting anything or giving advice to anyone.

And no, even if things were much better I would not go back, because that chapter of my life is over. I don't have attacks of nostalgia, and I don't have the urge to appear in my "village" in the latest model of Mercedes. But I do want normality in Serbia, so that I could at least have the option to choose a flight to Belgrade between 20 companies, instead of serbian government forcing me (and you) to fly only in 35 years old disintegrating JAT planes. If the cynicism and control towards its own people goes to that extent (not wanting to open up flights to free market), what can we expect with political (and other) freedoms.

So, grow up, once and for all. The sooner we admit to ourselves what rubbish our country has turned into, sooner it would be possible to start clearing it up...

And "the queen" was only a metaphor for "clean bill, long love"

)) .

ugly 20:11 23.10.2007

Re: When hell freezes over, and not even t

The reason that you're visiting these pages is that you're still interested and want to see if positive shit will happen - so that you might come back. Right?

Wrong. Very wrong. I also visit these pages, but haven't gotten a slightest idea or desire to move back. For explanation see:
http://blog.b92.net/text/1159/Serb%20Expats%3A%20What%20Would%20Make%20You%20Move%20Back%20to%20Serbia%3F/#k78665

The reason some of us keep coming here is to try to understand how people think 10 or 20 years later and see if any articulate, intelligent input and exchange could improve life for those we left behind. I neither want nor I believe I need to return physically to Serbia in order to be of some value and help to my country. I belong to the generation that believed a song and ideas can change the world. Perhaps I still do. Although we don't sing here, we do exchange ideas that here and there might have some value and could hit a right spot. If something I said on these blogs over the last few weeks made some young person "stuck" in Serbia think or feel different about their life or change their thought process , I'm happy. Some may start thinking about leaving, like I did many years ago. Others may feel even stronger about staying and fighting. Whatever the case is, and no matter how different our positions are, at the end of the day I feel we have accomplished something here.

Godzila 18:46 23.10.2007

I am thinking about return

at the moment this is not possible because of our jobs/careers. The things that make me think more about it are not financial since I am sure that I can provide a decent life with more or less basic necessities. However I think the pollution is a problem and health care is problematic if anything serious happen. On the other side I would love to spend more time with people dear to my heart there.

Kristijan Cebzan 18:48 26.10.2007

to be or not to be

Hi,
I am one of those returning and part of those who might leave again. I would just like to ad to what is obvious and that is the fact that there is no general will to move forward from the cultural and political status quo. What made me return to Serbia is the enthusiasm i built up by living abroad and the hope to communicate that enthusiasm and share it by living a productive life in Serbia. After struggling for a year i learned again about the way things are done in here and realized that indeed i don't have any relatives that are either rich or politicians. Education and experience i gained by learning and traveling seem sometimes to much to cope with for the people who are in position to make some decisions.
The transition we are going through is from dictatorship to civil society - from decision over law to law over decision. Dictatorship implies will for power and dismantling the dictatorial structure in Serbia not necessarily means that will for power will vanish. On contrary - we live in a society that now has a lot of small dictators; individualism in Serbia does not imply humanism but self importance and personal benefit. How to interrupt this wave of individual self indulgence? It is very difficult to self reflect and more as time goes by i tend to believe that this might be a deep cultural issue rather then just the negative effects of post II war Balkans. When the market becomes more mature, substantial and stable, things might gain some variety and the individual might stand up for itself truly and sustain its life simply by working and having a normal life and later this might become civil society. In Serbia if you don't desire more then you deserve you are considered as unfit or incapable. One constantly needs to take sides and keep safe other people fogy doings and affairs, otherwise there is no chance to get into the situation to act. Simply by being proactive isn't enough unless there is a critical mass for that and this mass is still smartly and strategically kept away from the possibility to act upon this gray situation and status quo. I apologize for the negative view but imagine it was exactly the opposite when i was returning here.
best
K.

DraganM 01:17 04.11.2007

Did it all....

I succeeded "in the West."
Milosevic was gone.
I had all the enthusiasm in the world.

And we went back...

We didn't ask for anything. We were greatful for the opportunity to do a work, to help re-building the country after Sloba, just to be in Serbia, in our Serbia, in our hometown, with our family....

Before we knew, we faced the reliaty...

-Negative selection. The best of the best left and are leaving Serbia. Those who are staying because they cannot leave or because they are in family relationships that afford them roles beyond their mental capcities -- took it all over. They are everywhere. They run the government, the NGOs, they serve criminal Serbian business oligrachy... The nepotism and titoism is the largest part of the 'human resources' and 'solutions'. It is repugnant. These guys know very well: anyone competent and not-corruptable is a danger to them, to their comfy lifestyle, to their high level positions and to their continuous advancing to the next level of their incompetentcy.
-"If you are not with us, you are against us." Corrpution. Bribery. Plundering of national resources. On all levels. The complicity of the 'common people'. Instead of getting readof it, 'the small guy' just looksfor the next opportunity to participate. If they could just get into the next 'tender', the next election, 'the next 'boat'... So that THEY, the common people, can also steal as their rules do... Because it is "the way system works." Do not try to change the corrupt "system". The goals is: "Find your way so that you too can benefit." "Snadji se, ukradi, drpi, ...."
-Business Oligarchy. Aka 'Serbian Tycoons'. They are everything but Serbian. 'Serbian' means for them to plunder everything Serbian, to bribe, to polute, just to amass as much money as they can for their children whom they installed at all critical functions of Serbian government and business. With such 'Serbian' tycoons, Serbia does not need any external emenies.
-The collapse of social structure. The non-existent medical system. Bribery, heroin and porngoraphy in schools.

If you simply refuse to be part of such picture, you are a suspect. if you try to contribute to the change, you are out or you are dead.

We are out. They let us out because my wife is American.

I would like to come back tomorrow.

But I shall not.

When?

-'Serbian' business oligarcy, i.e., Milosevic's funding clique, arrested instead of being members of American Chamber of Commerce in Serbia.
-The political system purged of all corrupt politicainas, i.e., of all politcians currently on the top, instead of rewarding them with loansand 'economist of the year' prizes.
-Enviromentalpolicies in place and enforced.
-Serbs start thinking again that the corruption is disgrace, that bribery is illegal, that schools need to be free of heroin and porngography.

I don'tthink we are coming back again... any time soon...

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