The Other

/ 27.09.2009. u 10:34

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This is a time for considered reflection.

Given the events in Belgrade of the last couple of weeks - the seemingly random attacks, the last-minute suppression of the gay parade - it does not seem a time to speak out and be heard. We should all stop and consider what we have allowed to happen here. I had not planned on writing on this subject as it has been thoroughly talked about, but I happened to find this in my reading, which I thought might be relevant.

The Other

He thinks not
Like me. He believes nothing
Which I believe. He looks different
From me. His blood - has he any?
Does he hope and dream?
Does he love and aspire?

No: let's kill him now.

Too many questions, too much thinking.
Perhaps we would find a family crying
Maybe some latent contribution
Or what if we found out, by asking,
That we are fast friends? We don't know.
We cannot know. It's easier.

And what if he were me?

(by Mat Smith)

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margos 10:43 27.09.2009

Different:)

margos 10:56 27.09.2009

Intolerance

teodorakaze 12:52 27.09.2009

Re: Intolerance

"...
All good people agree,
And all good people say,
All nice people, like Us, are We
And every one else is They:
But if you cross over the sea,
Instead of over the way,
You may end by (think of it!) looking on We
As only a sort of They!"

Kipling

sybil 15:08 27.09.2009

shame

recent events in serbia make me wonder- why we do not have a death penalty. i watch court cases on a daily bases in california, for rapists and heavy offenders there is only one verdict- death penalty by injection.

how and why is this happening? current police activity is below acceptable, nobody is safe anymore, bad news almost every day. what worries me is the strenght of terroristic organisations and weak response from the government. makes me wonder who is stronger, terrorists or government, i am not sure anymore. if we are weak, one day terrorists will become mainstream power. we have to fight.

we should organise a protest, like the protest 15 years ago when milosevic stole local elections, to demand from government to severely punish those involved in street terrorism, i.e. send them all to a life long prison, and also severely and irreversibly ban and punish their inspirators, e.g. political and financial force behind them.

vlkdrag 16:19 27.09.2009

Re: shame

how and why is this happening?

Long before Slobodan's fall criminals around him established a perfect exit strategy - they will become part of new Serbia, leaders on the path to Europe and prophets of our new future. As they imagined it.
We are simply too weak to fight the nonsense every day, for years now...

Filip2412 16:34 27.09.2009

Re: shame

we should organise a protest, like the protest 15 years ago when milosevic stole local elections,

recent events in serbia make me wonder- why we do not have a death penalty.

couldn't agree more

We can not expect government to resolve this, that's the same people who lied, embarrassed us and stole our money to save Miladin Kovacevic's ass, remember?

Domazet 16:40 27.09.2009

Great Idea...

sybil
recent events in serbia make me wonder- why we do not have a death penalty. i watch court cases on a daily bases in california, for rapists and heavy offenders there is only one verdict- death penalty by injection.
.
.
.

...it might finally help Serbia catch up with USofA. in something. And what's wrong it that something is the crime rate? Or the percentage of population in jail...

duchesse 16:40 27.09.2009

Re: shame

sybil
recent events in serbia make me wonder- why we do not have a death penalty.

We're aspiring to become an EU member state, not US, so we have to respect the fact that the EU is opposed to death penalty altogether, and is working towards its global abolishment. Furthermore, in a system as corrupt as the one we have, could you sleep peacefully without the moratorium? I know I couldn't.

sybil
what worries me is the strenght of terroristic organisations and weak response from the government.

Yes, undoubtedly, it's worrying. I wouldn't agree with you on the choice of words, though. They're not terrorists. They are a bunch of thugs backed by political parties who are in bed with the organized crime. Sadly, there isn't a political option in Serbia free from these ties, and that's the reason behind the Govt's weak response. No one can convince me that the police and BIA are unable to crack down on Obraz, 1389, the hooligans and their supporters among the politicians, businessmen, and clergy. I'm certain they simply will not do it because their bosses didn't give them the nod. Thugs on the streets, thugs in the Parliament, thugs on boards of major corporations, thugs in church councils, simply put, thugs are running this country. Which leads me to this:

sybil
we should organise a protest, like the protest 15 years ago when milosevic stole local elections

Firstly, a fat lot of good it did the last time. Secondly, you can't ask the Govt to arrest themselves, now can you? You also can't expect them to arrest the people who are financing them. That would be the equivalent of cutting the branch you're sitting on. And if the people went out on the streets, who'd be spearheading the protest?
Is there a single political figure capable and willing? I don't think so.

What will eventually happen is that they'll send some lower orders to prison, where they'll do some time and be back on the streets in no time. And even if they get life sentences, there'll still be new kids ready to take their place. Call me a defeatist, but I don't see a way out of this.

sybil 16:43 27.09.2009

Re: shame

Long before Slobodan's fall criminals around him established a perfect exit strategy - they will become part of new Serbia, leaders on the path to Europe and prophets of our new future. As they imagined it.

current street terrorism is not exit strategy, this is organised political movement supported by strong political forces, the same forces that murdered djindjic, hide milosevic family and prevent our progress path towards EU stuctures in the name of their own interests. they are not a group of criminals, they are well supported and organised political force.
here is one of their web-sites (go figure):

http://www.snp1389.rs/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=60&Itemid=72

sybil 00:44 28.09.2009

Re: shame

duchesse

We're aspiring to become an EU member state, not US, so we have to respect the fact that the EU is opposed to death penalty altogether, and is working towards its global abolishment. Furthermore, in a system as corrupt as the one we have, could you sleep peacefully without the moratorium? I know I couldn't.

I know, and I am enraged and deeply ashamed, that is why I said death penalty, speaking hypothethically, of course.

Yes, undoubtedly, it's worrying. I wouldn't agree with you on the choice of words, though. They're not terrorists. They are a bunch of thugs backed by political parties who are in bed with the organized crime. Sadly, there isn't a political option in Serbia free from these ties, and that's the reason behind the Govt's weak response. No one can convince me that the police and BIA are unable to crack down on Obraz, 1389, the hooligans and their supporters among the politicians, businessmen, and clergy. I'm certain they simply will not do it because their bosses didn't give them the nod. Thugs on the streets, thugs in the Parliament, thugs on boards of major corporations, thugs in church councils, simply put, thugs are running this country. Which leads me to this:

Terrorists kill at random - this is their "political statement", Those thugs as you call them, in Serbia send innocent people to hospitals. Is there a substantial difference? In my opinion, this is why they can be called terrorists.
I totally agree that there is no political will to crack down terrorists. Otherwise, there will be a press conference where government officials inform on the measures and steps to crack down inspirators and all those involved in street horror. After all what happened Tadic made statement in UN- we do not need lectures on democracy.
Outregious.

sybilwe should organise a protest, like the protest 15 years ago when milosevic stole local electionsFirstly, a fat lot of good it did the last time. Secondly, you can't ask the Govt to arrest themselves, now can you? You also can't expect them to arrest the people who are financing them. That would be the equivalent of cutting the branch you're sitting on. And if the people went out on the streets, who'd be spearheading the protest? Is there a single political figure capable and willing? I don't think so.What will eventually happen is that they'll send some lower orders to prison, where they'll do some time and be back on the streets in no time. And even if they get life sentences, there'll still be new kids ready to take their place. Call me a defeatist, but I don't see a way out of this

maybe you are right, but I believe we still have strenght to win.

duchesse 09:32 28.09.2009

Re: shame

sybil
Terrorists kill at random - this is their "political statement", Those thugs as you call them, in Serbia send innocent people to hospitals. Is there a substantial difference? In my opinion, this is why they can be called terrorists.

Still, I would like to point out the fact that "terrorism", as used in modern context, stands for an ideological revolutionary strategy, whereas what's happening in Serbia these days is state-sponsored terror aimed at creating a climate of fear in the general population thus bringing about certain political objectives. What's confusing is that on the face of it, the violence comes from below, while in Milosevic's era it most obviously came from above. To my mind, this is only an illusion since the thugs that are committing these acts of violence get their orders from above. And I agree with the following:

vlkdrag
Long before Slobodan's fall criminals around him established a perfect exit strategy - they will become part of new Serbia, leaders on the path to Europe and prophets of our new future.

It's not the DSS, SRS et al. who are solely responsible for what's happened to those foreigners, and the cancellation of Belgrade Pride. It's the DS, and their partners in Govt as well. There are no dark forces working from the shadow to bring the system down from within and take us back to the 90ies. They're openly in power and there's no one to oust them. Maybe in 10 years, when we've had enough of them, and some new forces emerge, we'll be able to get rid of them. I don't believe we have the strength to do that now.

vlkdrag 11:26 28.09.2009

death penalty

At first, I thought it was to hard to qualify these punks as such. But, you may be absolutely right, as they are nothing else but vendors of true terrorists, from our south province, in their joint operation, called heroin.
It is a deep and hard to solve problem that became part of every little settlement in Serbia now. Local Serbian dealers even enjoy globally unique, frightening discount: If heroin is to be distributed in Serbia, its price tag goes down...
For these reasons, I fully support reestablishing of death penalty in Serbia, as long as heroin dealing is to be treated as major crime, punishable by this penalty. Whoever deals heroin, is a Murderer, and as such has to be punished by law.

duchesse 12:42 28.09.2009

Re: death penalty

I think there may be similar laws in Iran.

Chris Farmer 16:30 28.09.2009

Re: death penalty

Lest my silence be misconstrued, the idea of introducing the death penalty or slamming down violently on people who have committed these acts of violence is exactly the opposite, in my view, of what should be done.

The death penalty does nothing more than foster a cycle of further violence – people kill, the state kills, people see that there are “conditions” under which it is ok to kill, more people kill, etc.

If we want this kind of justice, Saudi Arabia offers it.

The issue here is one of tolerance. In many countries, tolerance is mandated and forced by government. In a situation where the government throws up its hands and says it cannot handle a few gay demonstrators only to contemplate a second Operation Sabre as a response to the consequences of its inaction, then something is fundamentally wrong.

I refuse to take the cynical view that nothing can be done. Individuals can make a difference by acting with decency and tolerance for others. When enough catch on, maybe we will have survived our own worst instincts.

But impose the death penalty? Nothing is solved that way.

duchesse 17:21 28.09.2009

Re: death penalty

I've stated it once, and I'l repeat myself. The state is not incapable but unwilling.
I agree with you on the fact that violence breeds violence.
What I cannot understand is why you believe that being tolerant and hoping it's infectuous would be effective in this situation? You may make a difference in your local community, but the problem here is too far reaching and deep rooted.

Chris Farmer 18:41 28.09.2009

Re: death penalty

What I cannot understand is why you believe that being tolerant and hoping it's infectuous would be effective in this situation? You may make a difference in your local community, but the problem here is too far reaching and deep rooted

I have to believe this as I still believe firmly that there is hope for mankind. The "infectuous" nature of tolerance is not a quick fix but a generational solution to a wide-spread societal problem. A society cannot be changed overnight. But it has to begin somewhere. If it works in a local community, then there is the proof.

It most certainly does not solve the issues on the streets of Belgrade today. But I believe it is a way in which people can contribute to a better life as opposed to waiting to be delivered one.

sybil 03:50 29.09.2009

Re: death penalty

Chris Farmer
Lest my silence be misconstrued, the idea of introducing the death penalty or slamming down violently on people who have committed these acts of violence is exactly the opposite, in my view, of what should be done. The death penalty does nothing more than foster a cycle of further violence – people kill, the state kills, people see that there are “conditions” under which it is ok to kill, more people kill, etc. If we want this kind of justice, Saudi Arabia offers it. The issue here is one of tolerance. In many countries, tolerance is mandated and forced by government. In a situation where the government throws up its hands and says it cannot handle a few gay demonstrators only to contemplate a second Operation Sabre as a response to the consequences of its inaction, then something is fundamentally wrong. I refuse to take the cynical view that nothing can be done. Individuals can make a difference by acting with decency and tolerance for others. When enough catch on, maybe we will have survived our own worst instincts.But impose the death penalty? Nothing is solved that way.

chris,
it is certainly very strong argument against capital punishments, voice of reason and inteligence.

I also think that your belief in tolerance is not applicable here. Fear of punishment, not good human nature, governs human behavior. As someone said-it is not about capability, it is about unwillingness, and this is scary, I mean the power of exteremistic groups with support and encouragment from someone politically powerful.

Domazet 05:28 29.09.2009

Hang them high!

Fear of punishment, not good human nature, governs human behavior.

Truly unbelievable. And it comes from the otherwise seemingly civilized person.

But you are guessing already, and you are guessing right, this is not what I wanted to talk about. I actually wanted to talk about vast (and obviously successful) conspiracy of Serbian Someones that are Politically Powerful. They spread they shadowy influence on the streets of Rio de Janeiro, Mexico City, slums of Bangkok, even here in Chicago, south of 65th or east of Austin. Kakva bre Srbija od Milvokija do Tokija. This is much bigger, a truly global process. These Someones Powerfull are behind the chaos in hundreds of places on this once green planet where the killings of tourists in groups less than ten of them is not even newsworthy.

Confronted with this impeccable logic I realized how naive was my belief that the disillusioned ones that lost the hope for decent(any) future and lost the respect for their own lives can not have the respect for the lives of others. Or how even more naive was my belief that the only way to install the respect for the lives of others in those young savages is to help them start respecting their own. Naive, how very naive. And tedious. And with no guarantees for success. And, worst of all, might cause increase in our taxes. So let's do something civilized instead. Let's defend Democracy and hang them young punks and terrorists high! And let's watch that on the TV on lazy Sunday afternoons.

Btw, there is a bonus good into that. Instead of feeling guilty for becoming an integral part of our family room couch, we can hate them while they are dangling on the trees. Again, as somebody already said: Hang them high!

sybil 07:59 29.09.2009

Re: Hang them high!

Truly unbelievable. And it comes from the otherwise seemingly civilized person.

it comes from the research . experiment in canada, police was away one day, and during that time crime flourished, although it was happening in a civilised country. conclusion: people are civilised only because they are afraid of punishment.
reference: Steven Pinker The blank slate: modern denial of the human nature.

Confronted with this impeccable logic I realized how naive was my belief that the disillusioned ones that lost the hope for decent(any) future and lost the respect for their own lives can not have the respect for the lives of others. Or how even more naive was my belief that the only way to install the respect for the lives of others in those young savages is to help them start respecting their own. Naive, how very naive. And tedious. And with no guarantees for success. And, worst of all, might cause increase in our taxes. So let's do something civilized instead. Let's defend Democracy and hang them young punks and terrorists high! And let's watch that on the TV on lazy Sunday afternoons.

they are not lost, but indoctrinated. you think that violence can be crack down by - please, it is not nice, here is a warning. no, they deserve severe punishment. and what about their inspirators?

Chris Farmer 09:14 29.09.2009

Re: Hang them high!

"Nec audienti sunt qui solet docere, 'Vox populi, vox dei'; cum tumultuositas vulgi semper insanitas proxima est."
- Alcuin of York, Epistolae

Translation:
"Do not listen to those who are accustomed to claim that 'The voice of the people is the voice of God', because the tumult of the masses is always close to insanity."

duchesse 10:03 29.09.2009

Re: death penalty

Chris Farmer
I have to believe this as I still believe firmly that there is hope for mankind. The "infectuous" nature of tolerance is not a quick fix but a generational solution to a wide-spread societal problem. A society cannot be changed overnight. But it has to begin somewhere. If it works in a local community, then there is the proof.

It most certainly does not solve the issues on the streets of Belgrade today. But I believe it is a way in which people can contribute to a better life as opposed to waiting to be delivered one.

Oh I'm all in favour of action. I'm volunteering at an NGO concerned with public health in hope for a better health care system in this country. If I believed there was something I could do to make this society more decent and tolerant, I'd be doing it. But I don't. Call me a cynic all you want.

Truth be told, I do behave in a most civilized and decent manner, and even though I find the neighbour who likes to use the patch of grass beneath my window as his toilet intolerable, I tend to be tolerant and avoid throwing things at him, or pouring hot water on his head, as some do. I even say hello to him, and smile politely when I see him on the street.
I also take several baths a day, and still a lot of people around me seem to believe water and soap are detrimental to their health, or whatever it is that makes them decide not to take care of their personal hygiene.
I'm a fervent advocate of liberty, fraternity & equality, and still the scrawny creature from Obraz keeps saying: "Everyone knows what will happen if they try to parade. We're waiting for them." The list is endless. What I'm trying to say is that the fact that I'm polite and tolerant just puts me in the group of people similar to myself, as opposed to the people who smell foully, listen to gusle, think Ratko Mladić is a hero, beat drug addicts with shovels, beat tourists to death etc. They are The Other, and neither do I want to meet them halfway nor do they want to meet me. We look different, we'll never think alike, we'll never believe in the same things. Serbian society is a deeply divided one, and even though I'll keep being nice to the guy with the baseball bat, it's just the matter of time before he finds something annoying about me and swings the bat in my direction.

Chris Farmer 10:37 29.09.2009

Re: death penalty

Ok…

Despite the commonly held belief to the contrary, I am not a dreamy idealist. I think we are all fully aware that intolerance is rife, that uncivilized behavior is commonplace, and that people can act in the most barbarous and (yes, let’s use the word again) intolerable ways imaginable.

Moreover, I already dislike you neighbor.

I do not think that tolerance and decency is to be equated with inaction. Sybil said, quite correctly, that people are motivated by fear. This does not imply fear of death or of the re-imposition of a police state and marshal law. The fear is of consequences. At the moment, except for all us throwing out opinions into cyberspace, the perpetrators of acts of violence (and your neighbor) feel that there will be no consequences for their actions.

And they are probably right.

However, one of the consequences which we do not think about is the fear of ostracization. As much as we complain about these people, there are vast numbers who cheer them on. There is a silent mass of people (not rabble-rousers, insurgents, or provocateurs) who see the beating of a foreigner and nod their heads quietly. This is a conditioned behavior and can be changed.

Again, the modification of societal norms and behavior is the work of generations of people. If we need to fix this in the short term, maybe we do need more fear. Offenders should know that they will be pursued and apprehended for their actions; the police need to know that they will be supported by the state in doing so; and the state needs to know that it will be supported not only by the international bodies and governments but by its constituents. That means the people.

At the moment, this chain seems to be inversed. The people tend to agree with or put up with violence, the police do not act, the state does not respond, and the people wait to see what the state will do next.

In my view, it all starts and ends with the people, and the people are nothing more than a collection of individuals.

Even if we do not see them at the moment, solutions exist.

duchesse 11:44 29.09.2009

Re: death penalty

Chris Farmer
However, one of the consequences which we do not think about is the fear of ostracization. As much as we complain about these people, there are vast numbers who cheer them on.

True. Ostracizing would yield the best effect, if it were possible. But for that to happen, those of us who neither openly support nor silently condone violence, bigotry and primitiveness would have to be the majority, and would have to have political representatives in power. It's currently not so.

Chris Farmer
If we need to fix this in the short term, maybe we do need more fear.

It seems that in Serbia, everyone eventually gets to the same conclusion. If they don't fear you, they will not respect you. And the state inspires fear only in its poor, naive, law-abiding citizens.
The biggest problem are the institutions, their ineffectiveness, that is. We may change our laws, but the law is just a piece of paper if there is no one to enforce it. And if the police were willing to do their job, we would still have the ineffectual judicial system to deal with. It's a right old mess.

I'll agree with you, though, that the solution exists. I just can't see it. I will take a walk on Friday to show my dissatisfaction with the way this situation's being handled, but I'll retain the cynical attitude of disbelief in the effectiveness of my actions.

Domazet 14:01 29.09.2009

Re: Hang them high!

Chris Farmer
"Nec audienti sunt qui solet docere, 'Vox populi, vox dei'; cum tumultuositas vulgi semper insanitas proxima est."
- Alcuin of York, Epistolae

Translation:
"Do not listen to those who are accustomed to claim that 'The voice of the people is the voice of God', because the tumult of the masses is always close to insanity."

Further translation:

Puchina je jedna stoka grdna

And this comes from the source that I tend to respect. It is interesting, however, that he put these words in the mouth of Hated Foreign Oppressor. You have to ask yourself what did he (my trusted source) really want to say?

duchesse 14:10 29.09.2009

Re: Hang them high!

Had he attributed those words to a Montenegrin character, it would have been construed as an insult on his behalf to his people.

Domazet 14:13 29.09.2009

Your Royal Duchesse...

duchesse
Chris Farmer
I have to believe this as I still believe firmly that there is hope for mankind. The "infectuous" nature of tolerance is not a quick fix but a generational solution to a wide-spread societal problem. A society cannot be changed overnight. But it has to begin somewhere. If it works in a local community, then there is the proof.

It most certainly does not solve the issues on the streets of Belgrade today. But I believe it is a way in which people can contribute to a better life as opposed to waiting to be delivered one.

Oh I'm all in favour of action. I'm volunteering at an NGO concerned with public health in hope for a better health care system in this country. If I believed there was something I could do to make this society more decent and tolerant, I'd be doing it. But I don't. Call me a cynic all you want.
Truth be told, I do behave in a most civilized and decent manner, and even though I find the neighbour who likes to use the patch of grass beneath my window as his toilet intolerable, I tend to be tolerant and avoid throwing things at him, or pouring hot water on his head, as some do. I even say hello to him, and smile politely when I see him on the street.
I also take several baths a day, and still a lot of people around me seem to believe water and soap are detrimental to their health, or whatever it is that makes them decide not to take care of their personal hygiene.
I'm a fervent advocate of liberty, fraternity & equality, and still the scrawny creature from Obraz keeps saying: "Everyone knows what will happen if they try to parade. We're waiting for them." The list is endless. What I'm trying to say is that the fact that I'm polite and tolerant just puts me in the group of people similar to myself, as opposed to the people who smell foully, listen to gusle, think Ratko Mladić is a hero, beat drug addicts with shovels, beat tourists to death etc. They are The Other, and neither do I want to meet them halfway nor do they want to meet me. We look different, we'll never think alike, we'll never believe in the same things. Serbian society is a deeply divided one, and even though I'll keep being nice to the guy with the baseball bat, it's just the matter of time before he finds something annoying about me and swings the bat in my direction.

...I don't know about that young baseball bat wielding brute but you annoyed me already. Royally...

Domazet 14:16 29.09.2009

Annoyed or not...

duchesse
Had he attributed those words to a Montenegrin character, it would have been construed as an insult on his behalf to his people.

...I tend to believe that you got this one right. But let's not stop here. Any idea why he did not want to insult his own people?

Domazet 14:22 29.09.2009

So then should I assume...

it comes from the research . experiment in canada, police was away one day, and during that time crime flourished, although it was happening in a civilised country. conclusion: people are civilised only because they are afraid of punishment.
reference: Steven Pinker The blank slate: modern denial of the human nature.

...that the only thing that stops YOU from stealing, raping, killing...is the presence of police?

duchesse 14:29 29.09.2009

Re: Your Royal Duchesse...

Domazet
know about that young baseball bat wielding brute but you annoyed me already. Royally...

The proper way of addressing a Duchess would be "Your Grace".
Additionally, I'm not writing to please the general public, so it's no skin off my rosy nose that you're annoyed.

Madame la duchesse vous souhaite une belle journée!

Domazet 16:43 29.09.2009

Re: Your Royal Duchesse...

no skin off my rosy nose

...so then you are not annoyed with me improperly addressing Your Graciousness? Good, I can sleep tight now.

sybil 04:14 30.09.2009

Re: So then should I assume...

Domazet
it comes from the research . experiment in canada, police was away one day, and during that time crime flourished, although it was happening in a civilised country. conclusion: people are civilised only because they are afraid of punishment.reference: Steven Pinker The blank slate: modern denial of the human nature....that the only thing that stops YOU from stealing, raping, killing...is the presence of police?

the experiment i mentioned was about stealing, petty crimes. furthermore, it is well known that one cannot predict one's own behavior , one can never know what will happaen in war, or police absence. one can say, i would never ever do this, and it may not be true.
rape and murder are for psychoes, sick and disturbed. wrong! you can learn why "healthy and normal" commit violent crimes from the book I recommended.

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Different:)

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shame

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Great Idea...

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death penalty

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Hang them high!

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Your Royal Duchesse...

Annoyed or not...

So then should I assume...

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