B92 Blog

a sto u ove kasne sate na engleskom?
i koliko mislis da cemo cekati do poslednjeg ropca ovog nacionalizma ?
ja nesto nisam optimista.

Coco Rosie

ja nesto nisam optimista.

Neither am I, and English doesn't make it sound any more convincing.

Nice to read though - thanks.

...maybe the best of things

Coco Rosie

ja nesto nisam optimista.

Stvarno, sto na engleskom?

Today there was only one place for Tadic to be - Romania. For us, there is only one thing to do today - not to criticize Tadic, but to start bringing down Kostunica.

and how we're going to that without support from DS led by mr. president? should we still wait?
these are honest questions ivan, i'm not trying to criticize tadic.

Join the protests led by students. Don't wait for the politicians. Like in the good old days.

poslednji protest je odlozen, po meni zbog eventualno neodgovarajuceg odziva...

nego koliko je ljudi bilo sinoc - procene su od 200 do 400 hiljada...

Like in the good old days

which good old days?!

i think he thinks these days:

Ivan Marović

Join the protests led by students. Don't wait for the politicians. Like in the good old days.

Again??!! Do we need to protest every 10 years? If these new protests are success who can guarantee that there won’t be need to protest again in 10 years time? If we need to protest again how to make it sure this time is for good?

Tadic had 2.3m people behind him in the elections. If he was against the protest he should have been brave enough to say that. Yes, only diplomacy can help but diplomacy that we need is not going to be brought by student protests. They need to finish their universities and then start building our country through work. In the country where average age to finish university is 27 you cannot expect to see all the time rational decisions.

In the government and parliament we have smart people and they just need to be brave enough to step up, say what they think and get on with work,

mpuzovic

Again??!! Do we need to protest every 10 years?

One would think it obvious that, yes, we do.

In fact, we need them happening with a much higher frequency than that. And that's a good thing. Keeping the bastard politicians in check is the only way to survive with any amount of decency.

nikson

nego koliko je ljudi bilo sinoc - procene su od 200 do 400 hiljada...

Sinoćni "odziv" je gazimestanski podržan neradnim danom u svim školama i fakultetima, skraćenim radnim vremenom (do 12 i 13h) u državnim ustanovama i institucijama, besplatnim voznim i organizovanim autobuskim prevozom iz svih krajeva Srbije. To je big event, koji je organizovala država i čije je ogromne izdatke platila iz budžeta građana. Koliko je sve to koštalo? I to bez višemilionskog ceha načinjenog lomljenjem, spaljivanjem i pljačkanjem. I opet je bilo bar tri puta manje ljudi nego na Gazimestanu. Pritom, neposredan epilog ovog okupljanja je bio manje dostojanstven od njegovog pandana iz '89. zbog destrukcije glavnog grada i izgubljenog života jedne devojke kod američke ambasade. A kakav će biti epilog mitinga dugoročno gledano, to teško da iko može da predvidi u ovom trenutku, imajući u vidu poruke koju su poslali uvaženi govornici.

Ali o tom mitingu se već uveliko raspravlja na blogu.

nikson

poslednji protest je odlozen, po meni zbog eventualno neodgovarajuceg odziva...

Protest podrške nastavljanju evropskih integracija je odložen zato što nije mogla da se garantuje bezbednost učesnika, posle lomljenja Beograda i sukoba sa policijom u nedelju, ponedeljak i utorak.

Evo da vidite, šta je tom prilikom konkretno planirano na forumu sajta www.srpskinacionalisti.com, na kome proevropske studente nazivaju "čedistima":

СХАВННЕ:
Треба их демолирати у потпуности. Биће весело у среду пошто чедисти праве протест европа нема алтернативу од 15 до 19х.
на платоу испред филозофског факултета.
Па ја сам за то да они буду демолирани заједно са својим наркоманским вођом, и свим оним нво, само да буду на једном месту и да се сви они окупе, и онда их све од једном демолирати...


WITCH-KING OF ANGMAR:
Људи, овај њихов "протест" не сме да прође без контре! Да се ми окупимо за сваки случај па да видимо хоће ли да изађу или не...
"Исконско је право свих људи да умру и убију зарад земље на којој живе и да окрутно казне све припаднике своје расе који су грејали руке на огњишту освајача" - Винстон Черчил


РАЈКО:
" Што пропусти Милоица, дочекаће Радојица....."

Овај њихов митинг је јединствена шанса да им се приреди МММММММММММММММММММ коктел........са десетак ММММММММ коктела око њих и пар МММММММММММ међу њих, немају шансе ни да беже ни да стоје......јенини отворен пут ће им бити према Небу код чика Пере.....

М коктел се једноставно прави.....стаклена флаша од литра бензина у њој, фитиљом провученим кроз папмпур чеп напоље, шибица да запали фитиљ, па стакло о асфлат испред њих и међу њих......


ЈЕРА:
Уф ако Бог да да се појаве мојој срећи никад краја! Треба прво ове домаће потаманити са овим страним ћемо лако!


Pa je umesto protesta održana tribina gde su došli na verbalni okršaj, što je prihvatljivo u svakom otvorenom društvu (mada su oni tu rekli da takvi okrugli stolovi treba da se zabrane). Ali o tome je već bilo reči.

Dawngreeter

Keeping the bastard politicians in check is the only way to survive with any amount of decency.

Why can't we have a non-government organisation(s) that will keep them in check and let students do what they should do and get on with their studies?

mpuzovic

Dawngreeter:
Keeping the bastard politicians in check is the only way to survive with any amount of decency.
mpuzovic:
Why can't we have a non-government organisation(s) that will keep them in check and let students do what they should do and get on with their studies?

Why can't we be a normal country?

For us, there is only one thing to do today - not to criticize Tadic, but to start bringing down Kostunica.

Join the protests led by students. Don't wait for the politicians. Like in the good old days.

Tadic is the very one to be criticized, because he keeps giving CPR to Kostunica just as we think - he's finished now, (or as well put in the good old days GOTOV JE).

Anyway, students cannot do it on their own, they can put a huge amount of pressure ON TADIC AGAIN to do it... So guess what, Tadic deserves to be criticized! If the elections and the number of votes he got did not put enough pressure then I don't know what student protest will! He had a perfect chance to be what he said he would be and he blew it- AGAIN!

To conclude, I think you're too optimistic (unfortunately). The nationalism is still alive and kickin'.

Ivan Marović

irvasand how we're going to that without support from DS led by mr. president? should we still wait?these are honest questions ivan, i'm not trying to criticize tadic.Join the protests led by students. Don't wait for the politicians. Like in the good old days.

Ja bih sad organizovala protest u kom bi okupljeni isli gradom, cistili, popravljali, sadili cvece i sl. da pokazu sta je konstruktivno nasuprot destruktivnom.
for English speakers:
I would organise a protest meeting now, where protesters would patrol the city cleaning, fixing shop windows and planting flowers to demonstrate what it means to have a constructive approach to a crisis.

mpuzovic

Dawngreeter

Keeping the bastard politicians in check is the only way to survive with any amount of decency.

Why can't we have a non-government organisation(s) that will keep them in check and let students do what they should do and get on with their studies?

Because that establishes an authoritarian hierarchy which is, as any other authoritarian hierarchy such as the political one we are trying to keep in check, susceptible to corruption. And then we'd have to protest against it as well as the government. Further layering the political structure does not benefit us.

Because that establishes an authoritarian hierarchy which is, as any other authoritarian hierarchy such as the political one we are trying to keep in check, susceptible to corruption. And then we'd have to protest against it as well as the government. Further layering the political structure does not benefit us.

anarchist? you don't have to answer...

Well, yes, I'd think it self-evident. Which in and of itself hardly invalidates my point.

Dawngreeter

Because that establishes an authoritarian hierarchy which is, as any other authoritarian hierarchy such as the political one we are trying to keep in check, susceptible to corruption. And then we'd have to protest against it as well as the government. Further layering the political structure does not benefit us.

When you want to start a protest you have to form a group of people that have same ideas. By forming that group you are forming a new layer within society. Then using your logic that group of people will become suspectible to corruption. Without forming that group of people (which is probably going to extend/shrink sooner or later) you will end up with protest that will be the same as one that was last night. Out of chaos you cannot make order. You have to start with order.

Of course you have to form a group. Corruption, however, is not inherent to groups but to authority. Corruption on an individual level is not cost-efficient because you are only swaying one voice in a crowd. Institutions created to keep the government in check, however, have a formal hierarchy, positions of authority and all the other factors that are such fertile ground for corruption.

Groups of people, of course, have a different problem. They are swayed by propaganda, charismatic leaders and so forth. This is a real problem mostly perpetuated by centralized (or predominantly centralized) mass media. But it isn't corruption. Once you have enough people who want to protest, they are already beyond the mass media manipulation for the most part. The issue, then, is starting the protest rather than keeping it free of corruption. Which is why we need them to take place as frequently as possible, never to lose sight of their necessity.

i think he thinks these days:

they were good?! i dont think so...

LemonPie

...If the elections and the number of votes he got did not put enough pressure then I don't know what student protest will! He had a perfect chance to be what he said he would be and he blew it- AGAIN!To conclude, I think you're too optimistic (unfortunately). The nationalism is still alive and kickin'.

I agree absolutely.

Lep tekst, i fina analiza, samo se ne nalazim u ovoj bujici ničim izazvanog optimizma. Možda je zbog zamora od današnjih događaja, ali meni se čini upravo suprotno: da će naručiti još jedno divljanje SRS/BIA jugenda ne bi li imali izgovor za uvođenje vanrednog stanja?

Bilo bi lepo da grdno, ali baš onako, grešim.
Samo se nekako tokom 19 godina celog sranja uvek ostvarivao najgori scenario.
Pa otud i pesimizam.

From the last few days I got the sense that:
a)people are suprised/shocked that Kosovo declared independence (not surprising considering the official line and propaganda) and that
b)Serbia can, will, and should do something to reverse the independence.

I'm just afraid that the exploitation of this sentiment is something that these parasitic nationalists will use. Will they succeed? The next elections will tell. Am I optimistic? Knowing how many times Serbia and Serbs have hurt their own interests through self-destructive acts of stubbornness, hardheadedness, and pure seething rage... All I can say is hope is still alive but my brain is keeping it in check.

I actually agree. The scenario you are offering is most likely, because Serbia does not have an alternative to the path to Europe. Kostunica's refusal to face the truth and assess the situation realistically and practically is a sign that he is not at the top of the game... With such 'performance', he cannot stand in the way of what must happen...

i

I actually agree. The scenario you are offering is most likely, because Serbia does not have an alternative to the path to Europe. Kostunica's refusal to face the truth and assess the situation realistically and practically is a sign that he is not at the top of the game... With such 'performance', he cannot stand in the way of what must happen...

well, i think its clear that kostunica has lost the plot. i see his recent performance as a sign of desperation.

marovic is suggesting that we should protest on our own without major political support, "like in good old days".
in good old days, as most of us can remember, protest (the big one 96/97) had a strong support from djindjic and DS.
most of the people at the protest accepted djindjic as a leader.

who is going to be a leader now?

irvas

who is going to be a leader now?

Of course, Ceda Jovanovic. You can ask Doktorka, or anybody else in this blog will confirm you that.

Biljana Srbljanovic could be as well. I am surprised that they are not leading the protest right now on the streets of Belgrade, as they have such a big public support at this blog, and they are the only opposition leaders in Serbia. This is the right moment for them to step up and become huge - real leaders of Serbian democracy, and lead the protests of Serbia's opposition. I think that tens [of thousands;))) ] will follow them - including their pets, protesting against the Government of Kostunica;)))))

It is the right moment that Serbia's opposition step up, but unfortunatelly we do not have real opposition.
This is what I am writting for months in this blog, LDP has brought opposition of Serbia to the middle of nowhere, with totally wrong policy. As a result of that - there is practically no organized oposition in Serbia, or we may say - it is totally insignificant.

i think you have a wrong perception of blog bojan. we are minority in serbia, don't forget that.
at the protest 96/97 we were the majority, remember? that infamous "kontra-miting" was just a joke.

your thesis about "not-real opposition" i do not support so i have nothing to comment on that.

on this:

Biljana Srbljanovic could be as well. I am surprised that they are not leading the protest right now on the streets of Belgrade, as they have such a big public support at this blog, and they are the only opposition leaders in Serbia. This is the right moment for them to step up and become huge - real leaders of Serbian democracy, and lead the protests of Serbia's opposition. I think that tens [of thousands;))) ] will follow them - including their pets, protesting against the Government of Kostunica;)))))

is this suppose to be a sarcasm? well, if it is i have to tell you its pretty sick.
i can only imagine what would happen to anyone now taking LDP emblems out on the street. not to mention most certain violence that would be caused by protest of serbian opposition. and that, my friend, is not a solution for anyone at this stage.

i can only imagine what would happen to anyone now taking LDP emblems out on the street. not to mention most certain violence that would be caused by protest of serbian opposition

This is what I am telling you my friend. We need opposition who is capable to do something in public, not to hide. I predicted virtually the same when I left LDP at the end of January 2007, I said that natioalist will kick their asses after the independence of Kosovo is proclaimed. We are listening all of these engineous LDP people at this blog for years, and we can not form any new-real opposition here - as they are making us obstacles here with their indefinte and exclusive "tuth" .

Don't you see, LDP insisted to be the leader of united opposition in Serbia, and came to the point that people from opposition are scared even to go out of their homes. Do you understand the point, and results of that stupid and uselles LDP policy. There must be political responsability for that, and that is the reason thet we do need new and real opposition, organized in completelly different way. We need new people, we need new ideas.

Bojan Zdravic

This is what I am telling you my friend. We need opposition who is capable to do something in public, not to hide. I predicted virtually the same when I left LDP at the end of January 2007, I said that natioalist will kick their asses after the independence of Kosovo is proclaimed. We are listening all of these engineous LDP people at this blog for years, and we can not form any new-real opposition here - as they are making us obstacles here with their indefinte and exclusive "tuth" ..

just compare numbers bojan. how many people participated in protest yesterday and how many people actualy vote for LDP. your prediction about their arses being kicked is not a mistery. everyone expected that.

Don't you see, LDP insisted to be the leader of united opposition in Serbia, and came to the point that people from opposition are scared even to go out of their homes. Do you understand the point, and results of that stupid and uselles LDP policy. There must be political responsability for that, and that is the reason thet we do need new and real opposition, organized in completelly different way. We need new people, we need new ideas.

LDP couldn't have done anything about that. they are simply too small. but, i have to say, considering how long they have been as such in serbian politics, they are doing pretty well.

i agree that we do need new people and fresh ideas. but what you're suggesting is a creation of new oposition that would be the oposition to the existing oposition (please feel free to correct me if i'm wrong). don't you think that we should rather unite then desintegrate in number of smaller fractions?

irvas

but what you're suggesting is a creation of new oposition that would be the oposition to the existing oposition (please feel free to correct me if i'm wrong).

No, I am not suggesting that, I am suggesting creation of opposition to the current regime, which has to be changed.

As I have said, existing opposition has totally wrong policy - and is insignificant as a result of that. There is no need to be an opposition to something what is insignificant, it is just wasting of time and energy. Existing opposition is so bad, that I think it is bad on purpose and is actually working intentionally in favor of Kostunica regime.

So, I would never be with LDP again, in any circumstances, as I consider them as part of Kostunica regime, i.e. as fake opposition. All political leaders in Serbia are DB, so I would not have even a coffee with any of them.

There is one thing that you do not realize maybe - there are millions in Serbia who would like to join real and good opposition, but there is no good and real opposition political party - it does not exist. If LDP was doin right thinks, all of us would be there - no doubt about that. From my point of view I would never left them. Nobody wants to be a part of something, what is totally wrong - or even unite with that.

Existing opposition is so bad, that I think it is bad on purpose and is actually working intentionally in favor of Kostunica regime.

well, if this was true i could also argue that you are working for the regime by accusing LDP to be a bogus opposition.

paranoid?

irvas

well, if this was true i could also argue that you are working for the regime by accusing LDP to be a bogus opposition.

paranoid?

I am not paranoid of course, I am just telling you the fact, this is exactly the same what was happening to Serbian opposition - while it was under the leadership of Vuk Draskovic. There is absolutelly the same result - DB and Milosevic regime is still in power, and will be, until the real opposition is established in Serbia.
Milosevic regime can not be changed by supporting of independent Kosovo, what LDP is doing for two years. People of Serbia do not agree with independancy of kosovo, so they will never vote LDP - simple as that. That LDP support is giving Milosevic regime very good excuse to treat all opposition in bad and agressive way. Why do we need that kind of uselles united opposition?

Of course I am not working for regime, as my point is that this complete regime should have been replaced, with new real democratic regime - what LDP does not require btw. LDP is asking for some kind of reforms, what is status quo basiclly.

When you pick up this kind of things, you will be able understand the reality in Serbia, and take place in serious discussion. For the beginning you can visit Srdjan Mitrovic blog and try to learn something from Dekart, how to use the brain for the purpose of thinking.

When you pick up this kind of things, you will be able understand the reality in Serbia, and take place in serious discussion. For the beginning you can visit Srdjan Mitrovic blog and try to learn something from Dekart, how to use the brain for the purpose of thinking.

of course bojan, considering the fact that this comes from a guy who thinks he invented modern politcs, i should really take it seriously.

of course bojan, considering the fact that this comes from a guy who thinks he invented modern politcs, i should really take it seriously.

This is complete bullshit.

Anyway, I will have to tell you that I am pro American definetelly - so you understand better my position. I think that US policy regarding Kosovo is wrong, and has to be reconsidered, as it is obviously pushing Serbs into Russia'a hands, as Serbs have no other choice. This is what is really bodering me, as I do not want any Russia presence in Serbia.
Also, I do think, that there will be a war very soon, if US does not reconsider Kosovo policy, as Russia is unequivocally stating that it will use a force in Kosovo as well.

Talking about Serbian opposition led by LDP, who is supposed to lead demonstration against the war - it must be very nice joke, they are scared to death - even to get out of their homes with LDP symbols. I think, that it is much better for them to stay home and bravelly continue to jerk everybody else in this blog. Genius Jovanovic has taken the opposition of Serbia literally nowhere, it does not exist any more. What are you trying to say about it, that it is good and and efficient. What's wrong with you mn, are you that blind....

I do not understand, why B92 is continuing to favor and push LDP option in this blog, when they are obviously absolut losers.

Thank you

Serbia does need a leader with the skill of gathering everyone around the common cause... The common cause right now seems to be the reforms leading to admission into EU. But who will the leader be? Ceda does not seem to have a broad appeal, judging from the election results. Tadic is not strong or determined (or motivated?) enough to use the support of voters... but he will have to do for the moment.

In the long run, we need someone new. In my humble opinion, it would ideally be someone with modern values, a greater picture in mind, a strong vision for Serbia, with that leadership quality that includes broad appeal, and, finally, selflessness (not a little politician worried only for his little... ahem, behind... but someone who actually cares about this country and these people).
A TRUE LEADER.

We already had a true leader unite us the last time this took place. I would suggest that looking for a new true leader to replace the old true leader might not be a shining example of learning from experience.

After all, the very definition of insanity is repeating the same thing over and over again while expecting different results.

The only one I remember was killed.

We still don't have an alternative but to keep going. Try a new one. Democracy.... At least we can change them when they get 'rotten'.

The killed guy wasn't the uniting leader. He was the guy talking sense who was deeply resented and vastly unpopular. He could never, not in a million years, win the presidential elections.

Judging from the reaction to his murder - I'd say you are wrong. Perhaps people only then realized what they lost... but it still shows his potential. Just as the killing does.

That's all well and good. What I am saying is that the intelligent man of whom you speak was not the uniting leader. The fat bastard currently controlling this country was. It does us little service to have people realize who the important people were only when they're dead. And from what we can see today, not nearly enough people realized this even after his death.

Milosevices and Kostunicas of this world are the uniting leaders. I submit to you that we do not want such people running our country.

No unity, no achievements.

The problem with our previous uniting leaders is that they did NOT act in the best interest of this country, nor were they capable of doing so.

But what is it that this country needs then, in your opinion?

I will allow it to you that perhaps the only thing needed more than good leaders (perhaps more than one, why not - a group, a system) is good ideas.

Yes, we need ideas. We need people who believe in those ideas. And we need some good old-fashioned revolution action. Not an actual revolution, mind you, I'm not particularly fond of those unless they're absolutely necessary.

And we need for the next guy to take control of this country to be in mortal fear of its people.

And I disagree about Djindjic - why not call him by his name - I think that he had the potential of leading this country into true reforms, and that he would have done it if he had not been prevented in such a brutal way.

Quite possibly, yes. I agree. This country has lost a lot when he was killed and he could have done so much for us all.

But he was not the uniting leader. Intelligent people who can help this country will never, ever be uniting leaders. Uniting leaders are those people for whom the zombies Belgrade witnessed last night will vote.

You came up with the term 'uniting leader', not me.

We need someone who can do the job. Djindjic could. Nobody at the moment in Serbia seems to be able to. We need someone new.

As simple as that.

No new gods, charismatic tyrants, or resigned nationalistic 'historians'... Just someone who can do the job.

Well you mentioned something along the lines of

i

a leader with the skill of gathering everyone around the common cause...

Which I just shortened to 'uniting leader'.

But, no, I do agree with you. I just don't think mass appeal needs to factor in as much as you seem to, because what appeals to the masses isn't something I want to be a part of.

LDP is doing a good job so far, in that respect.

Dawngreeter

Quite possibly, yes. I agree. This country has lost a lot when he was killed and he could have done so much for us all.But he was not the uniting leader. Intelligent people who can help this country will never, ever be uniting leaders. Uniting leaders are those people for whom the zombies Belgrade witnessed last night will vote.

I disagree. An average Serb is not any worse or better than an average American.
Serbia needs somebody who will set up some practical goals in best interest of all people, beyond the interest of individual party, fulfil them and let people experience an improvement in their quality of life. That speaks better than any preaching. It will take some time, but people need to learn to vote for better life, not some spiritual mambo jumbo. Next time when the choice between mambo-jumbo and practicical improvement in everyday life is offered they will not have any dilemma who to chose.
The problem with the current situation is that there is no proper alternative.

Ana, you're saying what I'm thinking. That's exactly what our political leaders need to do. We do not need those who seek to appeal to everyone, but those who are doing something of use.

Which does not remove the need for some old-fashioned revolution action. I don't think we'll be getting rid of the guys shitting in our pond through agreements and compromises. We can get rid of these guys and then elect those people who did something of use to us. If we do our job well enough, ten years from now people just might stop popping boners every time some fat bastard starts speaking of war and xenophobia.

One of the important aspects of leadership is, well, leadership. One at least has to persuade people to vote for him/her.

But I will admit that it certainly is just one of the many, many aspects of a good statesperson. I cringe when people choose their candidates by how they say things rather than what they say.

And that perhaps one charismatic person at the head of this country has proved many times to be very dangerous. And that for that reason power in Serbia should be distributed over several offices and institutions.
For stability purposes.

But nobody will ever get to lead the people upon whom he/she looks down and whom they call 'masses' in a pejorative way. And whom they do not try to understand or connect with, putting them down as too unworthy.

In some of these aspects (although probably not all of them) LDP is not doing a good job.

nor anymore:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/114437