The End of Nationalism

/ 22.02.2008. u 04:38

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Since Kosovo declared independence Belgrade has become a warzone. Radicals are burning and looting, and ordinary people are confused - five days ago they were concerned with Kosovo, today they are concerned with the possibility that drunken hooligans may smash their heads with rocks. Kosovo is far away, radicals are just around the corner, breaking windows and setting buildings on fire.

The Belgrade riots are a symptom of a failed political movement. Nationalism has nothing to offer, no strategy, no plan, no political vision. Unlike Gazimestan in 1989, where Milosevic faced a crowd much bigger, crowd consisted of people that were calm and determined, Kostunica today faced people without a clue. Unlike Milosevic who promised war and revenge, Kostunica has nothing to promise, nothing to offer. He can only complain.

You can tell the day by the dawn. Nationalism is finished in Serbia, nationalism has nothing to offer except self destruction. We just need to wait for the mob to get tired of rioting, come out and continue the peaceful protest that started two weeks ago, protest led by Belgrade students, protest with a clear goal - European integration.

Boris Tadic was in Romania, while Kostunica was giving a speech together with Nikolic. This may prove to be a big blow to Kostunica. The message is more than clear: Serbian interests are better served with diplomacy than with speeches followed by looting. The contrast between Tadic and Kostunica is clear and will undermine Kostunica's base of support in the months to come.

Today there was only one place for Tadic to be - Romania. For us, there is only one thing to do today - not to criticize Tadic for Romania, but to start bringing down Kostunica.

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Coco Rosie 04:45 22.02.2008

!

a sto u ove kasne sate na engleskom?
i koliko mislis da cemo cekati do poslednjeg ropca ovog nacionalizma ?
ja nesto nisam optimista.

Bili Piton 04:54 22.02.2008

Re: !

Coco Rosie
ja nesto nisam optimista.

Neither am I, and English doesn't make it sound any more convincing.

Nice to read though - thanks.

AmosMouse 19:29 22.02.2008

hope is a good thing...

...maybe the best of things

Coco Rosie
ja nesto nisam optimista.

Gaston 04:59 22.02.2008

Stvarno

Stvarno, sto na engleskom?

irvas 04:59 22.02.2008

?

Today there was only one place for Tadic to be - Romania. For us, there is only one thing to do today - not to criticize Tadic, but to start bringing down Kostunica.

and how we're going to that without support from DS led by mr. president? should we still wait?
these are honest questions ivan, i'm not trying to criticize tadic.

Ivan Marović 05:09 22.02.2008

Re: ?

irvas
and how we're going to that without support from DS led by mr. president? should we still wait?
these are honest questions ivan, i'm not trying to criticize tadic.

Join the protests led by students. Don't wait for the politicians. Like in the good old days.

nikson 06:45 22.02.2008

Re: ?

Join the protests led by students. Don't wait for the politicians. Like in the good old days.

poslednji protest je odlozen, po meni zbog eventualno neodgovarajuceg odziva...

nego koliko je ljudi bilo sinoc - procene su od 200 do 400 hiljada...

BebaOdLonchara 11:19 22.02.2008

Re: ?

Like in the good old days

which good old days?!

Brooklyn 11:26 22.02.2008

Re: ?

i think he thinks these days:

mpuzovic 11:48 22.02.2008

Re: ?

Ivan Marović

Join the protests led by students. Don't wait for the politicians. Like in the good old days.

Again??!! Do we need to protest every 10 years? If these new protests are success who can guarantee that there won’t be need to protest again in 10 years time? If we need to protest again how to make it sure this time is for good?

Tadic had 2.3m people behind him in the elections. If he was against the protest he should have been brave enough to say that. Yes, only diplomacy can help but diplomacy that we need is not going to be brought by student protests. They need to finish their universities and then start building our country through work. In the country where average age to finish university is 27 you cannot expect to see all the time rational decisions.

In the government and parliament we have smart people and they just need to be brave enough to step up, say what they think and get on with work,

Dawngreeter 11:51 22.02.2008

Re: ?

mpuzovic
Again??!! Do we need to protest every 10 years?

One would think it obvious that, yes, we do.

In fact, we need them happening with a much higher frequency than that. And that's a good thing. Keeping the bastard politicians in check is the only way to survive with any amount of decency.

Srecko Sekeljic 12:12 22.02.2008

Re: ?

nikson
nego koliko je ljudi bilo sinoc - procene su od 200 do 400 hiljada...

Sinoćni "odziv" je gazimestanski podržan neradnim danom u svim školama i fakultetima, skraćenim radnim vremenom (do 12 i 13h) u državnim ustanovama i institucijama, besplatnim voznim i organizovanim autobuskim prevozom iz svih krajeva Srbije. To je big event, koji je organizovala država i čije je ogromne izdatke platila iz budžeta građana. Koliko je sve to koštalo? I to bez višemilionskog ceha načinjenog lomljenjem, spaljivanjem i pljačkanjem. I opet je bilo bar tri puta manje ljudi nego na Gazimestanu. Pritom, neposredan epilog ovog okupljanja je bio manje dostojanstven od njegovog pandana iz '89. zbog destrukcije glavnog grada i izgubljenog života jedne devojke kod američke ambasade. A kakav će biti epilog mitinga dugoročno gledano, to teško da iko može da predvidi u ovom trenutku, imajući u vidu poruke koju su poslali uvaženi govornici.

Ali o tom mitingu se već uveliko raspravlja na blogu.

nikson
poslednji protest je odlozen, po meni zbog eventualno neodgovarajuceg odziva...

Protest podrške nastavljanju evropskih integracija je odložen zato što nije mogla da se garantuje bezbednost učesnika, posle lomljenja Beograda i sukoba sa policijom u nedelju, ponedeljak i utorak.

Evo da vidite, šta je tom prilikom konkretno planirano na forumu sajta www.srpskinacionalisti.com, na kome proevropske studente nazivaju "čedistima":

СХАВННЕ:
Треба их демолирати у потпуности. Биће весело у среду пошто чедисти праве протест европа нема алтернативу од 15 до 19х.
на платоу испред филозофског факултета.
Па ја сам за то да они буду демолирани заједно са својим наркоманским вођом, и свим оним нво, само да буду на једном месту и да се сви они окупе, и онда их све од једном демолирати...

WITCH-KING OF ANGMAR:
Људи, овај њихов "протест" не сме да прође без контре! Да се ми окупимо за сваки случај па да видимо хоће ли да изађу или не...
"Исконско је право свих људи да умру и убију зарад земље на којој живе и да окрутно казне све припаднике своје расе који су грејали руке на огњишту освајача" - Винстон Черчил

РАЈКО:
" Што пропусти Милоица, дочекаће Радојица....."

Овај њихов митинг је јединствена шанса да им се приреди МММММММММММММММММММ коктел........са десетак ММММММММ коктела око њих и пар МММММММММММ међу њих, немају шансе ни да беже ни да стоје......јенини отворен пут ће им бити према Небу код чика Пере.....

М коктел се једноставно прави.....стаклена флаша од литра бензина у њој, фитиљом провученим кроз папмпур чеп напоље, шибица да запали фитиљ, па стакло о асфлат испред њих и међу њих......

ЈЕРА:
Уф ако Бог да да се појаве мојој срећи никад краја! Треба прво ове домаће потаманити са овим страним ћемо лако!

Pa je umesto protesta održana tribina gde su došli na verbalni okršaj, što je prihvatljivo u svakom otvorenom društvu (mada su oni tu rekli da takvi okrugli stolovi treba da se zabrane). Ali o tome je već bilo reči.

mpuzovic 12:16 22.02.2008

Re: ?

Dawngreeter

Keeping the bastard politicians in check is the only way to survive with any amount of decency.

Why can't we have a non-government organisation(s) that will keep them in check and let students do what they should do and get on with their studies?

Srecko Sekeljic 12:35 22.02.2008

Re: ?

mpuzovic

Dawngreeter:
Keeping the bastard politicians in check is the only way to survive with any amount of decency.
mpuzovic:
Why can't we have a non-government organisation(s) that will keep them in check and let students do what they should do and get on with their studies?

Why can't we be a normal country?

LemonPie 12:51 22.02.2008

the end al' malo sutra

For us, there is only one thing to do today - not to criticize Tadic, but to start bringing down Kostunica.

Join the protests led by students. Don't wait for the politicians. Like in the good old days.

Tadic is the very one to be criticized, because he keeps giving CPR to Kostunica just as we think - he's finished now, (or as well put in the good old days GOTOV JE).

Anyway, students cannot do it on their own, they can put a huge amount of pressure ON TADIC AGAIN to do it... So guess what, Tadic deserves to be criticized! If the elections and the number of votes he got did not put enough pressure then I don't know what student protest will! He had a perfect chance to be what he said he would be and he blew it- AGAIN!

To conclude, I think you're too optimistic (unfortunately). The nationalism is still alive and kickin'.

Ana WithAFamilyNameTooHardToPron 13:20 22.02.2008

Re: ?

Ivan Marović

irvasand how we're going to that without support from DS led by mr. president? should we still wait?these are honest questions ivan, i'm not trying to criticize tadic.Join the protests led by students. Don't wait for the politicians. Like in the good old days.

Ja bih sad organizovala protest u kom bi okupljeni isli gradom, cistili, popravljali, sadili cvece i sl. da pokazu sta je konstruktivno nasuprot destruktivnom.
for English speakers:
I would organise a protest meeting now, where protesters would patrol the city cleaning, fixing shop windows and planting flowers to demonstrate what it means to have a constructive approach to a crisis.

Dawngreeter 15:54 22.02.2008

Re: ?

mpuzovic
Dawngreeter

Keeping the bastard politicians in check is the only way to survive with any amount of decency.

Why can't we have a non-government organisation(s) that will keep them in check and let students do what they should do and get on with their studies?

Because that establishes an authoritarian hierarchy which is, as any other authoritarian hierarchy such as the political one we are trying to keep in check, susceptible to corruption. And then we'd have to protest against it as well as the government. Further layering the political structure does not benefit us.

irvas 15:58 22.02.2008

Re: ?

Because that establishes an authoritarian hierarchy which is, as any other authoritarian hierarchy such as the political one we are trying to keep in check, susceptible to corruption. And then we'd have to protest against it as well as the government. Further layering the political structure does not benefit us.

anarchist? you don't have to answer...

Dawngreeter 16:05 22.02.2008

Re: ?

Well, yes, I'd think it self-evident. Which in and of itself hardly invalidates my point.

Ivan Marović 16:56 22.02.2008

Re: ?

mpuzovic
Again??!! Do we need to protest every 10 years?

No, we need to protest every eight years.

mpuzovic 16:59 22.02.2008

Re: ?

Dawngreeter

Because that establishes an authoritarian hierarchy which is, as any other authoritarian hierarchy such as the political one we are trying to keep in check, susceptible to corruption. And then we'd have to protest against it as well as the government. Further layering the political structure does not benefit us.

When you want to start a protest you have to form a group of people that have same ideas. By forming that group you are forming a new layer within society. Then using your logic that group of people will become suspectible to corruption. Without forming that group of people (which is probably going to extend/shrink sooner or later) you will end up with protest that will be the same as one that was last night. Out of chaos you cannot make order. You have to start with order.

Dawngreeter 17:05 22.02.2008

Re: ?

Of course you have to form a group. Corruption, however, is not inherent to groups but to authority. Corruption on an individual level is not cost-efficient because you are only swaying one voice in a crowd. Institutions created to keep the government in check, however, have a formal hierarchy, positions of authority and all the other factors that are such fertile ground for corruption.

Groups of people, of course, have a different problem. They are swayed by propaganda, charismatic leaders and so forth. This is a real problem mostly perpetuated by centralized (or predominantly centralized) mass media. But it isn't corruption. Once you have enough people who want to protest, they are already beyond the mass media manipulation for the most part. The issue, then, is starting the protest rather than keeping it free of corruption. Which is why we need them to take place as frequently as possible, never to lose sight of their necessity.

BebaOdLonchara 00:37 23.02.2008

Re: ?

i think he thinks these days:

they were good?! i dont think so...

doktorka 06:18 26.02.2008

Re: the end al' malo sutra

LemonPie
...If the elections and the number of votes he got did not put enough pressure then I don't know what student protest will! He had a perfect chance to be what he said he would be and he blew it- AGAIN!To conclude, I think you're too optimistic (unfortunately). The nationalism is still alive and kickin'.

I agree absolutely.

Umetnica 05:13 22.02.2008

Čak štaviše i naprotiv

Lep tekst, i fina analiza, samo se ne nalazim u ovoj bujici ničim izazvanog optimizma. Možda je zbog zamora od današnjih događaja, ali meni se čini upravo suprotno: da će naručiti još jedno divljanje SRS/BIA jugenda ne bi li imali izgovor za uvođenje vanrednog stanja?

Bilo bi lepo da grdno, ali baš onako, grešim.
Samo se nekako tokom 19 godina celog sranja uvek ostvarivao najgori scenario.
Pa otud i pesimizam.

AlexTheVeliki 05:14 22.02.2008

Is it really over?

From the last few days I got the sense that:
a)people are suprised/shocked that Kosovo declared independence (not surprising considering the official line and propaganda) and that
b)Serbia can, will, and should do something to reverse the independence.

I'm just afraid that the exploitation of this sentiment is something that these parasitic nationalists will use. Will they succeed? The next elections will tell. Am I optimistic? Knowing how many times Serbia and Serbs have hurt their own interests through self-destructive acts of stubbornness, hardheadedness, and pure seething rage... All I can say is hope is still alive but my brain is keeping it in check.

Ivan Marović 16:59 22.02.2008

Re: Is it really over?

AlexTheVeliki
Knowing how many times Serbia and Serbs have hurt their own interests through self-destructive acts of stubbornness, hardheadedness, and pure seething rage...

When Milosevic came to power he offered clear political goal - imperialist and warmongering, but clear. Today no nationalist offered something like that. That's why I beleive that this is the end of nationalism.

i 05:15 22.02.2008

Re:

I actually agree. The scenario you are offering is most likely, because Serbia does not have an alternative to the path to Europe. Kostunica's refusal to face the truth and assess the situation realistically and practically is a sign that he is not at the top of the game... With such 'performance', he cannot stand in the way of what must happen...

irvas 05:23 22.02.2008

Re: Re:

i
I actually agree. The scenario you are offering is most likely, because Serbia does not have an alternative to the path to Europe. Kostunica's refusal to face the truth and assess the situation realistically and practically is a sign that he is not at the top of the game... With such 'performance', he cannot stand in the way of what must happen...

well, i think its clear that kostunica has lost the plot. i see his recent performance as a sign of desperation.

marovic is suggesting that we should protest on our own without major political support, "like in good old days".
in good old days, as most of us can remember, protest (the big one 96/97) had a strong support from djindjic and DS.
most of the people at the protest accepted djindjic as a leader.

who is going to be a leader now?

Bojan Zdravic 06:44 22.02.2008

Re: Re:

irvas

who is going to be a leader now?

Of course, Ceda Jovanovic. You can ask Doktorka, or anybody else in this blog will confirm you that.

Biljana Srbljanovic could be as well. I am surprised that they are not leading the protest right now on the streets of Belgrade, as they have such a big public support at this blog, and they are the only opposition leaders in Serbia. This is the right moment for them to step up and become huge - real leaders of Serbian democracy, and lead the protests of Serbia's opposition. I think that tens [of thousands

)) ] will follow them - including their pets, protesting against the Government of Kostunica

))))

It is the right moment that Serbia's opposition step up, but unfortunatelly we do not have real opposition.
This is what I am writting for months in this blog, LDP has brought opposition of Serbia to the middle of nowhere, with totally wrong policy. As a result of that - there is practically no organized oposition in Serbia, or we may say - it is totally insignificant.

irvas 07:02 22.02.2008

Re: Re:

i think you have a wrong perception of blog bojan. we are minority in serbia, don't forget that.
at the protest 96/97 we were the majority, remember? that infamous "kontra-miting" was just a joke.

your thesis about "not-real opposition" i do not support so i have nothing to comment on that.

on this:

Biljana Srbljanovic could be as well. I am surprised that they are not leading the protest right now on the streets of Belgrade, as they have such a big public support at this blog, and they are the only opposition leaders in Serbia. This is the right moment for them to step up and become huge - real leaders of Serbian democracy, and lead the protests of Serbia's opposition. I think that tens [of thousands)) ] will follow them - including their pets, protesting against the Government of Kostunica))))

is this suppose to be a sarcasm? well, if it is i have to tell you its pretty sick.
i can only imagine what would happen to anyone now taking LDP emblems out on the street. not to mention most certain violence that would be caused by protest of serbian opposition. and that, my friend, is not a solution for anyone at this stage.

Bojan Zdravic 07:31 22.02.2008

Re: Re:

i can only imagine what would happen to anyone now taking LDP emblems out on the street. not to mention most certain violence that would be caused by protest of serbian opposition

This is what I am telling you my friend. We need opposition who is capable to do something in public, not to hide. I predicted virtually the same when I left LDP at the end of January 2007, I said that natioalist will kick their asses after the independence of Kosovo is proclaimed. We are listening all of these engineous LDP people at this blog for years, and we can not form any new-real opposition here - as they are making us obstacles here with their indefinte and exclusive "tuth" .

Don't you see, LDP insisted to be the leader of united opposition in Serbia, and came to the point that people from opposition are scared even to go out of their homes. Do you understand the point, and results of that stupid and uselles LDP policy. There must be political responsability for that, and that is the reason thet we do need new and real opposition, organized in completelly different way. We need new people, we need new ideas.

irvas 07:46 22.02.2008

Re: Re:

Bojan Zdravic
This is what I am telling you my friend. We need opposition who is capable to do something in public, not to hide. I predicted virtually the same when I left LDP at the end of January 2007, I said that natioalist will kick their asses after the independence of Kosovo is proclaimed. We are listening all of these engineous LDP people at this blog for years, and we can not form any new-real opposition here - as they are making us obstacles here with their indefinte and exclusive "tuth" ..

just compare numbers bojan. how many people participated in protest yesterday and how many people actualy vote for LDP. your prediction about their arses being kicked is not a mistery. everyone expected that.

Don't you see, LDP insisted to be the leader of united opposition in Serbia, and came to the point that people from opposition are scared even to go out of their homes. Do you understand the point, and results of that stupid and uselles LDP policy. There must be political responsability for that, and that is the reason thet we do need new and real opposition, organized in completelly different way. We need new people, we need new ideas.

LDP couldn't have done anything about that. they are simply too small. but, i have to say, considering how long they have been as such in serbian politics, they are doing pretty well.

i agree that we do need new people and fresh ideas. but what you're suggesting is a creation of new oposition that would be the oposition to the existing oposition (please feel free to correct me if i'm wrong). don't you think that we should rather unite then desintegrate in number of smaller fractions?

Bojan Zdravic 08:19 22.02.2008

Re: Re:

irvas

but what you're suggesting is a creation of new oposition that would be the oposition to the existing oposition (please feel free to correct me if i'm wrong).

No, I am not suggesting that, I am suggesting creation of opposition to the current regime, which has to be changed.

As I have said, existing opposition has totally wrong policy - and is insignificant as a result of that. There is no need to be an opposition to something what is insignificant, it is just wasting of time and energy. Existing opposition is so bad, that I think it is bad on purpose and is actually working intentionally in favor of Kostunica regime.

So, I would never be with LDP again, in any circumstances, as I consider them as part of Kostunica regime, i.e. as fake opposition. All political leaders in Serbia are DB, so I would not have even a coffee with any of them.

There is one thing that you do not realize maybe - there are millions in Serbia who would like to join real and good opposition, but there is no good and real opposition political party - it does not exist. If LDP was doin right thinks, all of us would be there - no doubt about that. From my point of view I would never left them. Nobody wants to be a part of something, what is totally wrong - or even unite with that.

irvas 09:01 22.02.2008

Re: Re:

Existing opposition is so bad, that I think it is bad on purpose and is actually working intentionally in favor of Kostunica regime.

well, if this was true i could also argue that you are working for the regime by accusing LDP to be a bogus opposition.

paranoid?

Bojan Zdravic 14:56 22.02.2008

Re: Re:

irvas

well, if this was true i could also argue that you are working for the regime by accusing LDP to be a bogus opposition.

paranoid?

I am not paranoid of course, I am just telling you the fact, this is exactly the same what was happening to Serbian opposition - while it was under the leadership of Vuk Draskovic. There is absolutelly the same result - DB and Milosevic regime is still in power, and will be, until the real opposition is established in Serbia.
Milosevic regime can not be changed by supporting of independent Kosovo, what LDP is doing for two years. People of Serbia do not agree with independancy of kosovo, so they will never vote LDP - simple as that. That LDP support is giving Milosevic regime very good excuse to treat all opposition in bad and agressive way. Why do we need that kind of uselles united opposition?

Of course I am not working for regime, as my point is that this complete regime should have been replaced, with new real democratic regime - what LDP does not require btw. LDP is asking for some kind of reforms, what is status quo basiclly.

When you pick up this kind of things, you will be able understand the reality in Serbia, and take place in serious discussion. For the beginning you can visit Srdjan Mitrovic blog and try to learn something from Dekart, how to use the brain for the purpose of thinking.

irvas 15:19 22.02.2008

Re: Re:

When you pick up this kind of things, you will be able understand the reality in Serbia, and take place in serious discussion. For the beginning you can visit Srdjan Mitrovic blog and try to learn something from Dekart, how to use the brain for the purpose of thinking.

of course bojan, considering the fact that this comes from a guy who thinks he invented modern politcs, i should really take it seriously.

Bojan Zdravic 16:50 22.02.2008

Re: Re:

of course bojan, considering the fact that this comes from a guy who thinks he invented modern politcs, i should really take it seriously.

This is complete bullshit.

Anyway, I will have to tell you that I am pro American definetelly - so you understand better my position. I think that US policy regarding Kosovo is wrong, and has to be reconsidered, as it is obviously pushing Serbs into Russia'a hands, as Serbs have no other choice. This is what is really bodering me, as I do not want any Russia presence in Serbia.
Also, I do think, that there will be a war very soon, if US does not reconsider Kosovo policy, as Russia is unequivocally stating that it will use a force in Kosovo as well.

Talking about Serbian opposition led by LDP, who is supposed to lead demonstration against the war - it must be very nice joke, they are scared to death - even to get out of their homes with LDP symbols. I think, that it is much better for them to stay home and bravelly continue to jerk everybody else in this blog. Genius Jovanovic has taken the opposition of Serbia literally nowhere, it does not exist any more. What are you trying to say about it, that it is good and and efficient. What's wrong with you mn, are you that blind....

I do not understand, why B92 is continuing to favor and push LDP option in this blog, when they are obviously absolut losers.

Thank you

i 17:43 22.02.2008

Re: Re:

Serbia does need a leader with the skill of gathering everyone around the common cause... The common cause right now seems to be the reforms leading to admission into EU. But who will the leader be? Ceda does not seem to have a broad appeal, judging from the election results. Tadic is not strong or determined (or motivated?) enough to use the support of voters... but he will have to do for the moment.

In the long run, we need someone new. In my humble opinion, it would ideally be someone with modern values, a greater picture in mind, a strong vision for Serbia, with that leadership quality that includes broad appeal, and, finally, selflessness (not a little politician worried only for his little... ahem, behind... but someone who actually cares about this country and these people).
A TRUE LEADER.

Dawngreeter 17:46 22.02.2008

Re: Re:

We already had a true leader unite us the last time this took place. I would suggest that looking for a new true leader to replace the old true leader might not be a shining example of learning from experience.

After all, the very definition of insanity is repeating the same thing over and over again while expecting different results.

i 17:50 22.02.2008

Re: Re:

The only one I remember was killed.

We still don't have an alternative but to keep going. Try a new one. Democracy.... At least we can change them when they get 'rotten'.

Dawngreeter 17:54 22.02.2008

Re: Re:

The killed guy wasn't the uniting leader. He was the guy talking sense who was deeply resented and vastly unpopular. He could never, not in a million years, win the presidential elections.

i 17:58 22.02.2008

Re: Re:

Judging from the reaction to his murder - I'd say you are wrong. Perhaps people only then realized what they lost... but it still shows his potential. Just as the killing does.

Dawngreeter 18:14 22.02.2008

Re: Re:

That's all well and good. What I am saying is that the intelligent man of whom you speak was not the uniting leader. The fat bastard currently controlling this country was. It does us little service to have people realize who the important people were only when they're dead. And from what we can see today, not nearly enough people realized this even after his death.

Milosevices and Kostunicas of this world are the uniting leaders. I submit to you that we do not want such people running our country.

i 18:21 22.02.2008

Re: Re:

No unity, no achievements.

The problem with our previous uniting leaders is that they did NOT act in the best interest of this country, nor were they capable of doing so.

But what is it that this country needs then, in your opinion?

I will allow it to you that perhaps the only thing needed more than good leaders (perhaps more than one, why not - a group, a system) is good ideas.

Dawngreeter 18:25 22.02.2008

Re: Re:

Yes, we need ideas. We need people who believe in those ideas. And we need some good old-fashioned revolution action. Not an actual revolution, mind you, I'm not particularly fond of those unless they're absolutely necessary.

And we need for the next guy to take control of this country to be in mortal fear of its people.

i 18:26 22.02.2008

Re: Re:

And I disagree about Djindjic - why not call him by his name - I think that he had the potential of leading this country into true reforms, and that he would have done it if he had not been prevented in such a brutal way.

Dawngreeter 18:29 22.02.2008

Re: Re:

Quite possibly, yes. I agree. This country has lost a lot when he was killed and he could have done so much for us all.

But he was not the uniting leader. Intelligent people who can help this country will never, ever be uniting leaders. Uniting leaders are those people for whom the zombies Belgrade witnessed last night will vote.

i 18:34 22.02.2008

Re: Re:

You came up with the term 'uniting leader', not me.

We need someone who can do the job. Djindjic could. Nobody at the moment in Serbia seems to be able to. We need someone new.

As simple as that.

No new gods, charismatic tyrants, or resigned nationalistic 'historians'... Just someone who can do the job.

Dawngreeter 18:38 22.02.2008

Re: Re:

Well you mentioned something along the lines of

i
a leader with the skill of gathering everyone around the common cause...

Which I just shortened to 'uniting leader'.

But, no, I do agree with you. I just don't think mass appeal needs to factor in as much as you seem to, because what appeals to the masses isn't something I want to be a part of.

LDP is doing a good job so far, in that respect.

Ana WithAFamilyNameTooHardToPron 18:45 22.02.2008

Re: Re:

Dawngreeter
Quite possibly, yes. I agree. This country has lost a lot when he was killed and he could have done so much for us all.But he was not the uniting leader. Intelligent people who can help this country will never, ever be uniting leaders. Uniting leaders are those people for whom the zombies Belgrade witnessed last night will vote.

I disagree. An average Serb is not any worse or better than an average American.
Serbia needs somebody who will set up some practical goals in best interest of all people, beyond the interest of individual party, fulfil them and let people experience an improvement in their quality of life. That speaks better than any preaching. It will take some time, but people need to learn to vote for better life, not some spiritual mambo jumbo. Next time when the choice between mambo-jumbo and practicical improvement in everyday life is offered they will not have any dilemma who to chose.
The problem with the current situation is that there is no proper alternative.

Dawngreeter 18:50 22.02.2008

Re: Re:

Ana, you're saying what I'm thinking. That's exactly what our political leaders need to do. We do not need those who seek to appeal to everyone, but those who are doing something of use.

Which does not remove the need for some old-fashioned revolution action. I don't think we'll be getting rid of the guys shitting in our pond through agreements and compromises. We can get rid of these guys and then elect those people who did something of use to us. If we do our job well enough, ten years from now people just might stop popping boners every time some fat bastard starts speaking of war and xenophobia.

i 18:52 22.02.2008

Re: Re:

One of the important aspects of leadership is, well, leadership. One at least has to persuade people to vote for him/her.

But I will admit that it certainly is just one of the many, many aspects of a good statesperson. I cringe when people choose their candidates by how they say things rather than what they say.

And that perhaps one charismatic person at the head of this country has proved many times to be very dangerous. And that for that reason power in Serbia should be distributed over several offices and institutions.
For stability purposes.

But nobody will ever get to lead the people upon whom he/she looks down and whom they call 'masses' in a pejorative way. And whom they do not try to understand or connect with, putting them down as too unworthy.

In some of these aspects (although probably not all of them) LDP is not doing a good job.

Vega 05:38 22.02.2008

good old days?

nor anymore:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/114437

lidiaz 05:57 22.02.2008

Pobegulja

Today there was only one place for Tadic to be - Romania.

Mislis hrabro je zbrisao cekajuci da neko drugi resi probleme?

For us, there is only one thing to do today - not to criticize Tadic, but to start bringing down Kostunica.

Zasto ne kritikovati? Sto je hrabro pobegao? Sto ne sme da otera kamarilu od sebe? Sto ne sme da zatrazi ostavku zamenika ministra policije? Sto ne sme nista da uradi?

nikson 06:41 22.02.2008

Re: Pobegulja

Zasto ne kritikovati? Sto je hrabro pobegao? Sto ne sme da otera kamarilu od sebe? Sto ne sme da zatrazi ostavku zamenika ministra policije? Sto ne sme nista da uradi?

a sta da ostane na mitingu dss-ns-srs? drugim recima, zamisli da se toma pojavio na poslednjem tadicevom mitingu!?
i jos vise!

) zamili da se pojavio na ldp mitingu!

pregovori oko kosova se jos uvek vode nemojte se zavaravati. rumunija nece da prizna kosmet... naravno ne mislim da se vode oko statusa koliko oko drugih stvari i ko zna sta jos tu ima

a ovo oko ministra policije, vidi se da nisi bas u toku... ne postavlja on zamenika, a i zamenik je zamenik, on je samo tu dok nema ministra

irvas 06:47 22.02.2008

Re: Pobegulja

nikson
rumunija nece da prizna kosmet...

zaboravljas rusiju niksone, nc nc nc...

nikson 06:50 22.02.2008

Re: Pobegulja

irvas
nikson
rumunija nece da prizna kosmet...

zaboravljas rusiju niksone, nc nc nc...

ne razumes me, ne mislim da se sada resava status, ali se mnoge stvari resavaju i to je verovatno razlog poseti rumuniji...

irvas 07:09 22.02.2008

Re: Pobegulja

ne razumes me, ne mislim da se sada resava status, ali se mnoge stvari resavaju i to je verovatno razlog poseti rumuniji...

sto si tako tajnovit niksone? reci sta se to resava u rumuniji.
ja mislim da je tadic samo zbrisao kako ne bi dosao u priliku da se izjasnjava. ceka covek da prodje frka pa ce da se vrati.

nikson 07:14 22.02.2008

Re: Pobegulja

da vam prenesem exkluzivne informacije iz rumunije :)

ovo je bila dss-ns-srs ekipa na mitingu, posebno sto je dolazak bio organizovan. u celom beogradu su deca bila pustena iz skole, sa fakulteta, mnoge firme su oko 13h zavrsavale radno vreme + dve stranke organizuju miting i mobilizuju clanstvo po celoj srbiji

irvas 07:30 22.02.2008

Re: Pobegulja

nikson
da vam prenesem exkluzivne informacije iz rumunije :)

tako je niksone a ne ovo sto si napisao ispod. to svi znamo.
nego ja se pitam sta to vazno resava predsednik na sluzbenom putu dok mu zemlja ulazi u zavrsnu fazu drzavnog udara pokrenutog 2003.
meni sve ovo izgleda kao klasicna bezanija. lici na tadica moras priznati. a mozda gresim? tadic tek treba da nam pokaze koliko je hrabar... daj malo o ovome molim te. samo za nas iz inostranstva.

silver bullet 11:04 22.02.2008

Re: Pobegulja

ne razumes me, ne mislim da se sada resava status, ali se mnoge stvari resavaju i to je verovatno razlog poseti rumuniji...
*

Niksone, sto vi volite da bacite kosku pa gledate ko ce da se gloze oko nje.
Pouzdano, ali pouzdano, znam da je nas predsednik sam trazio, molio, rumunskog predsednika da ga primi bas juce. To nije bio dogovoren sastanak. To je uradjeno zbog mitinga. Nema tu nikakve taktike, samo prosta dnevno-politicka manipulacija. Kukavicluk, strateska procena? Procenite sami.

lidiaz 16:01 22.02.2008

Re: Pobegulja

a sta da ostane na mitingu dss-ns-srs?

A sto se dogovarao sa njima o mitingu? I sto nije jasno i glasni rekao svoj stav o istom.
On je kukavica, vodi kukavicku politiku i pobegne kad god je gusto.

a ovo oko ministra policije, vidi se da nisi bas u toku... ne postavlja on zamenika, a i zamenik je zamenik, on je samo tu dok nema ministra

On moze da zatrazi ostavku, ali nekako mi glupo da za jucerasnje ponasanje policije odgovoran bude ministar u komi.

bobo 05:59 22.02.2008

The End of Nationalism

Sto bih ja volela da sam optimista kao ti Ivane.

snail 06:00 22.02.2008

Leader

You're not my favorite blogger, on the contrary. Though I think you're a Good Guy, my leftist heart doesn't like you.
I was sure you led Otpor because of certain circumstances, it just happened to be you, it could have been anyone, any Hero of the day. And now I'm completely stunned with a sudden perception that you ARE a Leader.
Thank you for this text, it didn't just made me feel good for following you once before. Your vision of this day and the course you would take from here, the way you articulated it, and your confidence in it are inspiring.

vnk 06:08 22.02.2008

Not good enough

Sorry, Ivan.

Tadic deserves nothing but criticism. He has not shown leadership and determination to change anything. There was nothing during his mandate worth mentioning, nothing that would command any respect. And it all turned into lies following the re-election and a win gained on pure cheating.

Serbia needs a break from the past, fresh and honest leaders willing to look to the future. Fibre-optic cables, not mass religious processions. Someone able to stop yet another robbery behind the tried and tired nationalist rhetoric. The President able to say NO to miscreants who rule the country now.

The least we need is another master opportunist.

bobo 06:10 22.02.2008

Re: Not good enough

vnk

Serbia needs a break from the past, fresh and honest leaders willing to look to the future. Fibre-optic cables, not mass religious processions.

Dok se ne sekularizuje, mozemo da zaboravimo na The End of Natioanlism.

Solomon 06:23 22.02.2008

Nationalism is deep

I agree with you Ivan, Nationalism has nothing to offer Serbia (or any country). But people's connection to Nationalism is an emotional one, not rational. In fact, most Serbs will need a period of re-education before they can even begin to be 'rational'.
It will take a long time for people to change their mind and their hearts. In the mean time, another Generation of Serbs will be lost.
Kostunica and company consolidated their grip on Serbia today. Without open and clear backing by the Military and Police, I doubt anyone will be able to overthrough Kostunica in the near future.
We can count on more intimidation, more threats and more decline.
I hope Im wrong.

Soylent Green 06:36 22.02.2008

the learning curve

What needs to happen before anything stable materializes on the serbian political scenery is desensitization of the masses and stepping out of the tribal/personality-based 19th century politics into sceptical/cynical 21st century politics. It's sort of like learning to wash your hands after toilet use or not crossing the road on red light. New times require new skills.

Everything about politics is just too personal in Serbia.

They still use endearment terms like first-names to refer to politicians. Ceda. Toma. Selja. Bora. Klosmerl. Kostunjavi. Politicians are ahead of the population. They understand well that the politics is business, and population is the product. Tools are nationalistic, religious, utopian bs. and generic lies about the future. The product needs to understand this business and get better pricing for itself. That has not happened yet.

It is true that the nationalism has been spent, but the next stage is not going to be manufactured and offered by Ceda, Bora, some Djindjic's clone from the lab or Some Yet Unknown Great Charismatic Democratic Modern Leader. It's not their job. These guys just want a piece of action, ass, money and glory, not necessarily in that order. The next stage will come by citizens becoming more immune to politics and regarding all politicians, especially those they vote for, as greedy psychotic bastards who will sell their voters for minor rewards.

Once this is understood, the things will start to work.

It won't be great. It will just be less hazardous.

Screaming nationalists will be medicated (as Howard was.)

Politicians stealing too much will be jailed. Sometimes.

Politicians killing too much will be reprimanded. Sometimes.

Don't expect miracles. Just less shit.

vnk 07:14 22.02.2008

Re: the learning curve

So, what exactly steps do you propose to achieve this picture of Serbia? It looks more like Serbia in 2058. than 2008, and that's if all goes well. Serbia definitely needs a leader, the honest one for a change.

Soylent Green 07:47 22.02.2008

Re: the learning curve

vnk
So, what exactly steps do you propose to achieve this picture of Serbia? It looks more like Serbia in 2058. than 2008, and that's if all goes well. Serbia definitely needs a leader, the honest one for a change.

Frankly, as long as majority of serbs think all they need is an honest leader, they're fucked.

I propose nothing, as change is not based on proposals but on brute force. And yes, it will take a decade or two.

The way it will happen is by surrounding societies having better and more efficient mechanisms of societal control, which will yield better weapons and better economy. Nationalistic and xenophobic society will lapse and become non-competitive in every sense, and finally it will become a hygiene problem. The choice Serbs have, if any, is to decide whether the transition to a modern society (open flow of capital, irrelevance of politics, subservience to the empire of choice) will be initiated from within or from the outside. I don't think it will come from within, which would preserve some of the tribal ... I mean national identity. The most likely scenario is integration via buyout of politicians. Which is already happening. And the choice of the second-rate empire (Russian Federation) is questionable.

asterix 08:24 22.02.2008

Re: the learning curve

sve je najbolje shto je moglo biti.
po Volteru

vnk 08:41 22.02.2008

Re: the learning curve

Frankly, as long as majority of serbs think all they need is an honest leader, they're fucked.

That would be a big improvement, actually. Serbia still just follows The Leader, no matter who the leader is and no matter what the leader says.

Mind you, I cannot be totally objective, as a Serbian myself, 12th year expat, so this very well could be utopia. But the proposal I am after is more my wish, hope if you want, that there is that one good person, able to surface through feces and slowly start opening their eyes.

And derail Serbia on the path to that second-rate empire or total isolation. I don't think Serbia has decades to do this - the world is going, it won't and it can't wait.

Jelena Milić 08:52 22.02.2008

good timing

Good post Ivan. Brave one for that matter, too. One small amendment- we can continue to criticize/warn DS /Tadic too in the same time while we work on Kostunica's downfall. Especially because DS is apparently still sensible towards public criticism, which is a good news. No matter how and why but they understood the rage of the civic non-nationalist Serbia and distinguished themselves from the event.

Still they are in the government. This gov.

And I really, really hope that they/DS understand your blog. I do have concerns that most of them do not! And this is why they sit on two chairs for far to long.

bobo 14:34 22.02.2008

Re: the learning curve

Serbia definitely needs a leader, the honest one for a change.

Enough with leaders!

Ivan Marović 16:21 22.02.2008

Re: good timing

Jelena Milić
One small amendment- we can continue to criticize/warn DS /Tadic too in the same time while we work on Kostunica's downfall.

I agree, Jelena. I just want to set the priorities. Bringing down Kostunica is more important. Criticizm of Tadic only in the service of this goal.

vnk 20:43 22.02.2008

Re: the learning curve

Apparently, not. People need to learn not to be led and that's what a good leader must do in Serbia.

Jelena Milić 08:48 24.02.2008

Re: good timing

i agree of course. i hear you. my concern is, though, that tadic does not hear us both.

much too often he abused this fair and smart logic that we have had applied. i was thinking of obtaining some clear commitments from tadic.

PS as a reply to another post--apart from shooling russinas, how about PART TWO FOR SERBIA

Ivan Marović 15:32 24.02.2008

Re: good timing

Strategic nonviolent conflict, lesson number one - pull, don't push. Tadic needs to be pulled away, not pushed towards Kostunica. Regarding part two for Serbia - I believe it is time.

nikson 09:02 22.02.2008

...

bugari usli u sofiju... a vi vidite sta cemo

antioksidant 09:24 22.02.2008

.

Today there was only one place for Tadic to be - Romania

There was only one place for the serbian president to be - in Serbia. Tadic could choose - to be president or to be in Romania. He made his pick.

Have a nice day

Craven - lacking even the rudiments of courage; abjectly fearful; "the craven fellow turned and ran"

Dawngreeter 09:27 22.02.2008

Optimism

Or, rather, the lack thereof. On my part, of course.

What I feel a lot of people are doing (I had a similar conversation with a friend yesterday which also involved some incredibly contrived international behind-the-scenes deal with a whole lot of politicians) is simply trying to convince themselves that all this is somehow good. That this is not the bottom of the barrel we're staring at.

I really wish it was like that. I wish our president was sending us the message about diplomacy being more important than violence, rather than cowardly running away and refusing to accept responsibility. I wish this rally was the last kick of a dying beast, rather than a demonstration of its strength. I just don't think I have that much baseless optimism in me. Maybe if we chant about it long enough, it'll become true. But it doesn't seem to be true right now.

adam weisphaut 09:35 22.02.2008

Wov

Thank you for letting us know what a great president we have, and while you are at it maybe you could explain how come he fled like a coward from the mess he helped to create? Yesterday's meeting was the culmination of the joint Kosovo policy of Tadic, Kostunica and Nikolic, for months our president helped the latter two in creating the hysteria about Kosovo, Tadic agreed with the rally being organized, his man Alimpic was in charge of the technical preparations of the rally and when he realized that the shit was about to hit the fan he escaped to Romania proving to be unfit of the position of a statesman. Yesterday it was of course the radicals who did the violence, it was the DSS-run police who failed to prevent them but it was Tadic and his party's ministers who are the majority in Kostunica's government who chose to turn a blind eye to this! Why?

Modesty Blaise 09:57 22.02.2008

Dragi Ajvane

A sto svi ovde pricaju na engleskom? Je l ocekujemo neku medjunarodnu posetu na ovom postu ilil se vezba diplomatija sa potezanjem iz nosa radi ostvarivanja solidnog akcenta a u cilju dokazivanja kvalifikacije?
A jesi hteo da kazes da su se Ameri odlucili da je Tadic relevantni garant evropske orijentacije u Srba i da su resili da ga poguraju oD pozadi i oDozdo te mu rekli u ponedeonik da u cetvrtak kako zna i ume bude u Bukurestu u deset ujutru i da vidi sta moze da uradi sa onim sintetickim zavesama u ambasadi, to mora na ruke da se pere i traje ceo dan? Hani, to je vristalo nocas sa CNN ekrana. Old njuz. Kasnis 5 sati sa otkrovenjem.
A Amerima, glede guranja od pozadi samo jedno da kazem - there's whole lotta ass to push.

irvas 11:44 22.02.2008

Re: Dragi Ajvane

ko obrisa moj komentar?
ivane, ti li si?
nisam te vredjao majkemi samo sam rekao istinu.

Dale 10:10 22.02.2008

Of the People / By the People

I think the major problem is that the majority of the Serbian population do not realize that they CAN control the government and influence the policies. It is the people themselves that must start that change. So many times I have heard people say "well that is just the way things are"! They except some government officials robbing the country blind and taking advantage of any situation to gain political power and control.

Every Serbian citizen has the right to complain about the way things are done by their countries leaders "If they excerise their right to vote"!! If not then "if you don't vote don't BITCH"!

In every country around the world you can see and find politicans that only in it for their own good. Once in a life time someone comes along like "J.F.K. or Dindic". But as Teddy Roosevelt said "some people are born great and others have greatness thrust upon them". But I think what most people need to remember is what Edmund Burke once said "All that is needed for EVIL to prevail is for a FEW good men to do NOTHING".

That is what happend last night in Belgrade "Evil Prevailed". Because of a couple hundred hooligans that want nothing more than to beat each other or someone else". This small group does not show the hundreds of thousands that stood silently in prayer and listened nor do they in my eyes depict the Serbian Population or represent the country. They are hooligans and criminals and most of them are not even of legal age. They attack US Embassy and some companies but wear NIKE, ADDIDAS and other well known brand names.

The events last night and the police failing to protect the embassies of foreign countries showed a German Police tatic of withdrawl or deescalation "lets just pretend it's not a problem and they might go away"! But what ALL Serbians need to realize is that is headlines such as those that will make it around the world first and not those of peaceful demonstrators. The Serbian people need to stand with the police in order to really work effectively against this type of criminal activity. Those citizens that know the identity of the hooligans should come forward and make a stand or get the hooligans by the "Ears" and take them to the police. I know if one of those were my child I would already have him in front of the police paying his dues! Such acts can and should not be tolerated by the people of Serbia. Again that is not the Serbia I have come to know.

The burning of the embassies are actually crimes committed on FOREIGN SOIL and many options are open. Crimnial charges can be filed in those countries and extridation saught for those that committed the acts. Hooligans are only strong in numbers when alone ther are just that ALONE!!

I do NOT agree with the Independence of Kosovo in this manner. I beleive it does violate international law and this should be brought in front of the International Courts. We must remember "Lady Justice is Blind but she also has eyes that can see in the Dark!"

We as a people of the world community must remember that "Violence begits Violence". Even though there are times where we are left with NO other choice. But PEACE should be the goal and even though it might take longer it will win in the end. NOONE prays for PEACE like a SOLDIER!

Ninoslav Randjelovic 10:24 22.02.2008

offerings in Serbia

"Nationalism is finished in Serbia, nationalism has nothing to offer except self destruction."
You know it for sure ? Or you wish it ?
What about promoters of democracy in Serbia ?
Except corruption, what else do they have to offer ?

nikolla90 11:20 22.02.2008

Re: offerings in Serbia

Tadić invited all of us to the streets and then - he ran away to Romania?! Oh, yeah, I'll criticize him because I still don't know who is Boris Tadić. I know who is Toma Nikolić and Vojislav Koštunica, I know who is Čedomir Jovanović, but I don't know who the f. is Boris Tadić?!

Ninoslav Randjelovic 11:24 22.02.2008

Re: offerings in Serbia

who the f. is Boris Tadić?!

The President of Serbia.
The President of Democratic party.
Devoted husband and the loving father.
Europe and Kosovo-in- Serbia bound

nikolla90 11:33 22.02.2008

Re: offerings in Serbia

Ninoslav Randjelovic
who the f. is Boris Tadić?!
The President of Serbia.

Is he?

Ninoslav Randjelovic

The President of Democratic party.

So?

Ninoslav Randjelovic

Devoted husband and the loving father.

SO?!

Ninoslav Randjelovic

Europe and Kosovo-in- Serbia bound

Europe?! lol! Europe only for elections, Kosovo ALWAYS..

Of course, I meant - where is he between us and Koštunica & Nikolić..?

Ninoslav Randjelovic 11:41 22.02.2008

Re: offerings in Serbia

where is he between us and Koštunica & Nikolić..?

Where ?
Most likely somewhere in between as long as it makes his life (and the lives of those advisors of his) comfortable and prosperous...

adam weisphaut 11:44 22.02.2008

Re: offerings in Serbia

Of course, I meant - where is he between us and Koštunica & Nikolić..?

zoricag 13:18 22.02.2008

Criticism with purpose

For us, there is only one thing to do today - not to criticize Tadic, but to start bringing down Kostunica.

Can't agree more

Sto se mene tice bio je kritikovan ranije upravo sto je odlagao da bude tamo gde treba. Sad je stigao do granice kada je to postalo neizbezno. Ovo sad, verovatno je bilo teze nego da je to uradio proletos, kad je vec bilo teze nego da je to uradio 2004 itd, ali uradio je.

Ovoga puta najvise od njega samog a i od nas zavisi da to ne bude samo kratak izlet

A da iskoristim da kazem i B. Zdravicu da je vreme da prekinemo da ocekujemo obavezno jednog lidera. Imamo mi puno lidera progresa i drugacijeg puta. Za sve njih ima mesta i za sve njih (i B. Srbljanovic, i C. Jovanovica, i za Tadica i za druge) ima napornog posla i svi oni imaju moju podrsku. Najmanje sto zelim je da opet imamo jednog i jedinog. neka se nadmecu ko ce bolje, ko ce bze, ko ce uspesnije, a mi cemo da biramo vece dobro.

Zelim da dozivim da onaj koji sidje sa vlasti ostane postovan za ono sto je u svom mandatu uradio. Dokle god imamo u vlasti one koje opstanak na vlasti cuva od suskih postupaka, od njih racionalne poteze za drzavu ne mozemo ocekivati.

citadin 13:44 22.02.2008

Potpisite peticiju / Sign the petition

Peticija protiv otcepljenja Kosova u senatu SAD-a.
A Petiton to Urge That Kosovo is Not Severed From Serbia and Respect of Nation-State Sovereignty and Territorial Integrity.

Target: Pres. George Bush, V.P. Dick Cheney, Secretary of State Condoleeza RiceSponsored by: xenia lynn teresa williamsTHIS PETITION IS CURRENT

Additional Targets: Congressman Tom Lantos, Senators: Joseph Lieberman (IN-CT) , John McCain(R-AZ), Joseph Biden(D-DE) and Gordon Smith(R-OR)

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/petition/905791187

irvas 13:53 22.02.2008

Lepi Odisej

Tadić je pobegao u Rumuniju da ne bi morao da se penje na binu sa Nikolićem, a onda je iz Bukurešta pozivao na mir. Ne mora predsednik ni da se vraća, Tomislav Nikolić mu je sinoć preoteo mandat. Može Tadić slobodno da nastavi obilazak zemalja koje još uvek nisu priznale Kosovo. Može pravo iz Rumunije u sunčanu Španiju, pa na sunčani Kipar, kupićemo mu i onaj avion koji se puni kerozinom u vazduhu, da ne mora ni da sleće - ako se tako oseća bezbednijim. Predsednik nam je pravi srpski Odisej, čuje glasove sirena, glasove predaka koji ga dozivaju, a on, naš lepi Odisej, vezao se za jarbol da ih ne bi sledio i udavio se.

pescanik.net

JJ Beba 14:42 22.02.2008

Re: Lepi Odisej

Boris Tadic was in Romania, while Kostunica was giving a speech together with Nikolic. This may prove to be a big blow to Kostunica. The message is more than clear: Serbian interests are better served with diplomacy than with speeches followed by looting. The contrast between Tadic and Kostunica is clear and will undermine Kostunica's base of support in the months to come.

ma nemoj.
otišao je da ne b, onim biračima koji su prepadnuti od straha od valdavine tome nikolića kojima ih je obasipao tokom predizborne kampanje, morao da obljašnjava šta traži sa njim na istoj bini.
pobegao je da ne mora da govori sa te bine.
DS članovi su danima slali cirkularne sms poruke - pozive da se izađe na miting.
ne dolazak tadića je samo igra. može da kaže svojim glasačima da nije bio tamo jer se ne slaže sa tim, a tomi &comp da su njegovi članovi bili tamo, a da je on lobirao kod Rumumuna nešto (rumuni nisu priznali kosovo).
zašto se niko od njegovih ministra pa i on sam javno nije ogradio o miting?
đilas nam je sinoć smirenim glasom rekao da je grupica huligana upropastila mirne demonstracije. razlika između njegove i koštuničine izjave je samo u nedostatku epiteta "veličanstveni" kod reči protest.
sram bilo DS
sram bilo borisa tadića

JJ Beba 14:47 22.02.2008

Re: Lepi Odisej

ps
zašto se njegovi ministri ne povuku iz ove vlade i lepo ne raspišu novi izbori?
neće, već će da kažu da nije vreme, da je nestabilno i samo će da dozvole koštunici i samardžiču da vladaju nama kao svojom prćijom

AmosMouse 02:01 23.02.2008

Re: Lepi Odisej

JJ Beba
ps
zašto se njegovi ministri ne povuku iz ove vlade i lepo ne raspišu novi izbori?

Preuzimanje ovlašćenja ministra kome je prestao mandat.
Izbor novog ministra
Član 25.
Ovlašćenja ministra kome je prestao mandat vrši član Vlade koga predsednik Vlade ovlasti.
Predsednik Vlade dužan je da predloži Narodnoj skupštini izbor novog ministra u roku od 15 dana od prestanka mandata prethodnog ministra.
Novi ministar izabran je većinom glasova od ukupnog broja narodnih poslanika.
(zakon o vladi)

Dawngreeter 02:50 23.02.2008

Re: Lepi Odisej

Hm. Zanimljivo. Ali (imam utisak da cu sad da ispadnem strahotno glup u drustvu) Predsednik Vlade je Djelic, ne? Mislim, stvarno nisam siguran kako idu te titule, ali premijer nije isto sto i predsednig vlade, ako su meni to dobro objasnili. Ako predsednik vlade izadje iz vlade, sta onda?

AmosMouse 10:20 23.02.2008

Re: Lepi Odisej

Dawngreeter
Predsednik Vlade je Djelic, ne?

you wish

Dawngreeter
Ako predsednik vlade izadje iz vlade, sta onda?

clan 16: Vladi prestaje mandat sa prestankom mandata Narodne skupštine, izglasavanjem nepoverenja, ostavkom Vlade, izglasavanjem nepoverenja predsedniku Vlade i ostavkom predsednika Vlade.
Nova Vlada se bira po istom postupku kao što se bira Vlada posle konstituisanja Narodne skupštine.

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