England 2 – Serbia 0 or Derbyshire Killed Fair Play

/ 20.06.2007. u 22:58

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‘That Derbyshire is a bastard.’ ‘The English should be ashamed.’ ‘I thought that the English were the one’s that invented fair play?’ These are all comments that I have read and heard recently following Serbia’s defeat at the hands of England during an Under 21 European Cup Football qualifier. Serbs evidently feel cheated by a dubious goal but why are they so angry when it happens all the time? Didn’t Serbia qualify? And top of the group? Was the game that significant? No, not really but I think the answer to all the anger is about something else entirely. It is due to a dying faith in fair play and anguish at its evident deterioration, but it is also significantly, about what Serbs consider to be the erosion of an essential ‘Englishness’.

An Englishness whose quaint tea-drinking island nation mentality and notions of fair play have found themselves at odds with the prevailing sporting philosophy of win at all costs; a philosophy from across the Atlantic pond. It’s a rather good philosophy, fair play, the trouble being that you rarely end up winning. Not that that’s the point old chap. It’s all about taking part and doing the right thing. Yes, we English do consider fair play important and we are critical of acts that just aren’t quite right, but the point is not that England has allowed itself to slip, but that England has lagged so far behind the move to ‘win at all costs’ that we are still upheld as the benchmark of fair play. And that I believe was the reason for the anger. Not because of what happened, but because it was such a shock for an Englishmen to be seen doing such a thing. That somehow we had cheated the world. That we were really like the Italians and the Portuguese after all. That Englishness had simply disappeared and we had no right to claim it as a sporting philosophy anymore. The trouble is that fair play died long ago in sport and England’s ‘dishonorable act’ is only its last nail in the fair play coffin.

The Italians had to dive to beat Australia, world cyclists are all up to their eye balls and cricket coaches are assassinated in their hotel rooms. Fair play is truly dead and has been disappearing for some time. And its not about nationality or the sport involved, but rather about the increasing commercialisation of sport and not ‘the need to win at all costs’ but ‘the need to win because of the costs’. Commercialisation has meant that teams can’t afford (literally) to miss those chances and they are told to take them whether it is fair or not. This approach has pervaded all sports and even Englishness has got a price. I’m just hoping that if we are going to pay it, which I don’t think we should, it’s going to land us a major trophy one of these days.

And coming back to the goal; wasn’t the referee the one at fault allowing the goal? I’ve seen hundreds of strikers do exactly what Derbyshire did with the referee not giving the goal. Fair play it might not have been, but it is standard practice these days, whether you like it or not.

[12-13 on penalties was a deserved result for them, but I wouldn’t, despite what the commentator said, call it ‘just desserts’.]

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giger 23:19 20.06.2007

Well..

I don't think fair play is dead... It's something you're born with, or if you like something that your parents implant in your personality...

You could see Belgians tonight throwing the ball out of the field in the moment when some of our players were down. They did despite the fact they were loosing the match.

I don't have anything else to say about english team, they are out, we are in the finals and that's it.

PS. I'm NOT a football fan....

jadac 01:41 21.06.2007

Re: Well..

srbija u finalu

)))

milosrdni andjeo 23:39 20.06.2007

That Derbyshire is a bastard.

It is true:)But,not just him..your news(paper) are worst then him.They call all my nation rasist,nazi people,etc.Is that normal 2 you?I don't think so...anyway,I m really glad because U re out of competition:)
C U in some cricket tournament,after all..that is yours national sport:)
Bye

jadac 02:20 21.06.2007

Re: That Derbyshire is a bastard.

nevermind.....holand-england 16-15
cheers!!!

Nicholas Comrie 10:32 21.06.2007

Press coverage

Our tabloid press are bad but I dont think that they called Serbia Nazis. Those accusations were levelled at the Croats. Yes our press can be inflammatory and naieve but isn't everyone's at times. And its not as if the Serbian press didn't resort to such expressions of outrage 'Sramota' - hardly.

Read what Zarkov wrote, I think he has got a good point to make.

milosrdni andjeo 11:51 21.06.2007

Re: Press coverage

There is no excuse 4 yours journalist.They blame all my nation 4 racialist convergence some 10-15 Idiots on stadium.I read what Zarkov wrote..that s his attitude...i think that fair play in England has died after Eric Cantona era(period)...

Nicholas Comrie 14:11 21.06.2007

Cantona!

Er, did you forget a certain kung-fu kick? I think its fair to argue that the likes of Cantona helped it on its way.

milosrdni andjeo 17:20 21.06.2007

Re: Cantona!

He was player with heart,attitude and huge ba..s.Yeah,he also do some things wich don t related football..but he is not like some of this "new stars"...if U know what I mean.
Btw. I did'nt mean just 4 Cantona.I mean 4 that period...'90s..

zero 18:38 21.06.2007

Re: That Derbyshire is a bastard.

well, our fans have shown us in that light. what thay yell in every game (remember helsinki) is unthinkable in england today...

milosrdni andjeo 19:11 21.06.2007

Re: That Derbyshire is a bastard.

Topic is about fair play...if some1 open new thema about football fans we will talk...

tnosugar 14:49 25.06.2007

Re: Press coverage

actually it was your national public broadcaster that relayed Derbyshires statement saying 'we all know what kind of country/people' those players come from.

Now, that is racist and coming from BBC it is hypocricy as well.

Legbreak googly 00:06 21.06.2007

Fair play is a two-way street

I disagree. I don't think that what Derbyshire did is standard practice today (although it can barely be considered violation of fair play, under the circumstances) and I don't think that fair play is dead. I mean Rajkovic got up when Serbia had the ball and then sat down again once England regained possession. It is a case of borderline abuse of fair play. On the other hand I remember several splendid examples of English fair play: Fowler trying to decline a penalty, Wenger and Arsenal calling for a replay of the FA Cup game they won,...

I think that it is a mentality thing: all is fair in love and war, so if an individual views the game as war, he will cheat, steal or worse in order to win. But this has not changed during the years: you had Stanley Matthews (never been booked) and Douglas Jardine. Don Revie's Leeds, The Crazy Gang, even the English national team were hardly the bastions of fair play.

As for the Serbian reaction (players, supporters at the game and the public) to the events, I was appalled. I have no idea where they get this warped idea about what are English supposed to be like and why this amount of vitriol about an insignificant incident like this.

zarkov 01:57 21.06.2007

it is not just about fair play

"It is due to a dying faith in fair play and anguish at its evident deterioration, but it is also significantly, about what Serbs consider to be the erosion of an essential ‘Englishness’. "

There is a constant need here to blame the rest of the world whenever is possible, situations like this are most wanted among serbian jurnalist. That is a "prove" the world is "bad" and we are the "victims". It is about media missusing not about fair play. Therefore every suspicious judgement is emphasized etc. How long you live here? You should know this. btw. the ball was in our possession before that incident.

MMMila 07:33 21.06.2007

FA of ENgland made problem!

The problem with playing on is that the rule in the Premierhsip has been changed.

People were taking advantage of the convention that you put the ball out by pretending to be injured, so this season all players have been told not to put the ball out for the otehr team.

If you own man is injured, then you put it out, or the referee can stop it. I actually think this is a good idea (just idea), but the problem is that in European competition everybody else still plays by the (good) old convention.

There were problems in England's friendly against Spain, and also in the Man Utd game at Old Trafford against AC Milan, and in Blackburn's Uefa Cup game against Leverkusen.

Michael 07:49 21.06.2007

Fair play?

Mate, the problem is with the sport: soccer is too open to this sort of stuff. Everyone knows that referees/umpires/officials/whatever you want to call them are stupid: the problem is that the outcome of a soccer match, more than the outcome of any other sport, can be and often is determined entirely by the official's incompetence.

Disclaimer: in case my use of the word "soccer," didn't tip you off, I'm an Aussie. I'm glad you mentioned the Italians, they're a disgrace. OK I'm off to buy supplies for watching the final, wouldn't miss it for the world... Hajde Srbija!

MilutinM 08:33 21.06.2007

Commercialisation

Nicholas:
not ‘the need to win at all costs’ but ‘the need to win because of the costs’

I agree that the problem is in commercialisation of sports. It is not a pleasure any more, neither for players nor for anyone involved (except some committed and objective public). It became an industry, like others. It was about 15 or 20 years ago when sport became largest industry in USA, bigger that the car industry.

For real sport, you should watch amateurs: Sindjelic against Obilic (they are back to where they belog), Polet against Dorcol, Lestane against Begaljica.

MMMila 11:25 21.06.2007

Znate da sam ponosna na nas!!!

Iz vise razloga:)

milosrdni andjeo 11:55 21.06.2007

Re: Znate da sam ponosna na nas!!!

појасни за нас из задњих редова:)

MMMila 13:11 21.06.2007

Re: Znate da sam ponosna na nas!!!

Jesmo li u finalu? JESMO!

Jesmo li naseli na provokacije? NISMO!

A vidi ovde...znamo li engleski da im pokazemo? ZNAMO!

Dok iza ledja mozemo da im spominjemo kolko 'ocemo familiju na srpskom, koji bi nadobudni arogantni englescici naucili za jedno milion godina!

PS
Sefe, izvini!
:)

milosrdni andjeo 13:16 21.06.2007

Re: Znate da sam ponosna na nas!!!

Сад ће онај магарац доле да им преведе да ћеш их набадати када дођу на EXIT:)

MMMila 14:53 21.06.2007

Re: Znate da sam ponosna na nas!!!

milosrdni andjeo
Сад ће онај магарац доле да им преведе да ћеш их набадати када дођу на EXIT:)

To sam sebi kazesh?

milosrdni andjeo 17:21 21.06.2007

Re: Znate da sam ponosna na nas!!!

Играш грубо baby:)

MMMila 18:06 21.06.2007

Re: Znate da sam ponosna na nas!!!

Nije sudija vid'o!
:)

tnosugar 14:51 25.06.2007

Re: Znate da sam ponosna na nas!!!

uh gresis, mislim da mark pullen bolje govori srpski nego ti engleski

noboole 11:28 21.06.2007

Oh but one other thing

I am a bit suprised that there are no commentaries from Serbian authors about rasism among supporters. I know this isn't the topic of your blog, but it is the closest thing. If Serbs are not rasists we should have heard a lot of condemnations. We should be able to feel that everybody was appaled to what was going on. Ok, I am a Serb and I grew up in Belgrade. I can't say that I have witnessed open rasism but there was hardly any opportunity as not so many black people live in Serbia. What really bothers me is that there is no reaction, that we are deaf to what was happening among supporters, that for us, this is only a minor insignificant incindent.

An explanation would be that since Serbia went through miserable times, people are currently focusing only on themselves and don't give much to the abstract ideas (for Serbia) about other races and their rights. But it's ugly nonetheless.

bganon 12:34 21.06.2007

I agree Nicholas

I am also a little shocked by reaction - not so much by reaction by some, as by reaction from people that should know better. You expect this kind of reaction from teenage boys.

Count yourself lucky if you dont read Serbian because some of the comments in the Serbian language part of the blog are more than below the belt.

'Animals' and 'let some English slut pay for this during Exit' are some of the worst comments but the general atmosphere was such that this is considered ok. Personally I'm glad that the English lost the game yesterday because I cannot imagine the orgy of name-calling if Serbia played against England in the final and lost.

What we also have is an attempt to seperate (or forget) the issue of abuse, (alleged racism by fans or players) from Derbyshire's goal. We read about British hooligans or the claim that Serb fans at the match didnt have Serbian passports and lived abroad - Mila, you are wrong on this. I bet that many of those fans have Serbian passports but they have dual nationality, besides why is that relevant?

Then you have the fact that the referee had a really bad game. He really did make a number of dubious decisions, including not stopping play when the Serbian player was laying on the ground and allowing the goal and a good penalty shout in the first half. But oh no, lets not talk about that, lets get hysterical about the English instead. Its much more sexy. And of course you have that get out clause if some people go too far - you were only joking. Any fall-out is never your fault. Thank God that game wasnt against Croatia!

Neither was I particularly impressed with the over-emotional commentary on B92.

Yes there is no question that the goal itself was unsporting but not in any way adequate enough to excite people the way it has. The result was the same. And the comparisons with Maradonas hand of god are also absurd.

No, for me personally I'm saddened by some of the reaction but that wont stop me from fully supporting Serbia in the final.

All in all, a mountain made out of a molehill.

milosrdni andjeo 12:51 21.06.2007

Re: I agree Nicholas

bganon
.'Animals' and 'let some English slut pay for this during Exit' are some of the worst comments but the general atmosphere was such that this is considered ok.

Wtf?!!!I don't think U re brainless but U re obviously cheeky.It was just a joke man...

Great Fire 13:45 21.06.2007

Re: I agree Nicholas

I just wonder what would have happened had Serbia scored a goal in the same situation and you were out. I really wonder what your press' comments would be. You would probably be banging on about it not being fair as well, and threaten to stop playing international games until things like that were sorted out.
And if you really think that someone would "show English sluts at Exit" as you quoted, than you really are paranoid and I don't know what you are doing here.
I do condemn the racist chants, it is well out of order, especially in sports. I have heard a comment last night that fans are doing it to annoy the players, not because they are really racist. Still I think that, even if that was the case, it is repugnant. But please don' tell me that there is no racism in England.
On the other hand, I do agree with Nicholas that it has become the case of winning at all costs, which is sad. I have also heard a comment from an English friend that he supports England starting cheating as the other countries are doing, because playing fair has never brought them anything. And I was terribly sorry to hear that, because I did like your "Englishness" as Nicholas put it.
As you said youself "All in all, a mountain made out of a molehill".
And yet, I am sorry we won't be playing you guys, not for revenge really, but to see who is better, for real. Hopefully these kids of ours will do well later when they start playing for A team.
Cheers

bganon 14:07 21.06.2007

Re: I agree Nicholas

MA For a joke it was in pretty bad taste.

Tell me a real joke and I promise to laugh.

milosrdni andjeo 14:20 21.06.2007

Re: I agree Nicholas

Come on,do U really think that I would like 2 be with some English (slut) addition all ours beautiful girls?I'm really sorry but I must 2 say 2 U that U re crazy If U think so:)

bganon 14:23 21.06.2007

Re: I agree Nicholas

GF but you are comparing 2 different situations. Serbia did not go out after this match. To compare the English reaction in the terms you mentioned one would have to compare the Serbian reaction had Serbia crashed out and then measure the reactions. I cant tell you how the press is reacting in England, as I dont live there, but I can tell you how the Serbian tabloid press reacted.

Dont want to talk about that joke any more. If you like that kind of humour thats your choice.

'And yet, I am sorry we won't be playing you guys, not for revenge really, but to see who is better, for real. Hopefully these kids of ours will do well later when they start playing for A team.'

I am not sorry at all. If England won that match I would not like to watch / listen to the consequences. But I echo your sentiment on these kids. I cant wait to see this generation move forward. Its the most promising generation since 1990. Thank God one of those kids didnt throw a punch in the match - that kind of thing haunts a player. Remember Kezman's red card when he came on as sub (he didnt deserve it but somehow bad luck in the national team has followed him since).

BTW I support Serbia and not England and I always supported Yugoslavia back in the day - although some people seem to be doing their best to make me think twice. Its the same with basketball (I support Zvezda) and those idiotic supporters who, as somebody said recently, think everybody owes them as they took part in October 5th.

bganon 14:24 21.06.2007

Re: I agree Nicholas

Great Fire 14:33 21.06.2007

Re: I agree Nicholas

Yes two different situations, but my point was that we didn't need to win and our guys reacted like that because I still think it was shameful to pass by a player lying on the pitch and score.
And to tell you one thing more. I support England, sometimes more than Serbia. And I think if England played Serbia in the finals of a World Cup I would be suporting England, because I some of you guys really live for that, and because "Three lions on a shirt" (or 30, now more than 40, years of heart) always gives me goose bumps, and the song just goes to show how important it is to you, or some of you.
But I love my country as well and, in my opinion, the racist chants, as disgusting as they were, were in a way used (and abused) to cover up for you lack of fair play in that one action in English press.
Maybe you are right about the consequences afterwards, if Serbia played England in the finals.

bganon 14:56 21.06.2007

Re: I agree Nicholas

I think it quite likely that I would take a similar position to yourself were I in England and perhaps you would share my opinion were you in Serbia.

If so, its one of those slightly odd situations and probably does neither of us credit since it shows both of us to alter opinion or principles depending on the reaction around us. Still, I cant help it. Even if I knew something to be right but had a million fascists supporting me I would have to disclaim my view, if you understand what I mean.

And yes three lions on a shirt is a classic (and I think its 30, '(40) years of hurt' isnt it? No, in some way you are right, of course I like England too but Serbia will forever be the underdog.

Now that you mention all of the stuff that goes with the world cup in England or some other countries its such a pity how much Serbia misses out. Commentators are yet to become loved or professional, a decent song to get the public in the mood before the event, pre (and post) match analysis and all the stuff that comes with it. By the time the first match is played you feel like you are going to explode in anticipation Unfortunately there isnt such a sense of everybody being involved in Serbia but perhaps this will change. Promotion and romaticising is an important part of the world (or european) cup story.

Now I had better stop acting as if this was my blog entry and let Nicholas reply...

Great Fire 15:00 21.06.2007

Re: I agree Nicholas

Just to add that I agree with everything you said up there.
I believe we understand each other better now :)
Cheers mate

m.agrippa 01:13 22.06.2007

Citizenship

Well, I think it's rather important to find out whether the Serbian fans in the stands are Dutch citizens. If they are (and if they had not come from Serbia / with the team to see the game), then they are the responsibility of the Dutch authorities. I'm sure Holland has an anti-racism law. Of course, for the sake of the argument, we will assume that they did use racist slurs or were making monkey/gorilla gestures/sounds.

Why would the Serbian national team be responsible? Guilty by ethnic association?

I find it ridiculous that 100% of the blame for all the mess (racism, lack of fair play, fist-fighting, spitting) has been leveled at Serbia and England, yet NONE at the host - Holland. As far as I know, the host has to take responsibility for the smooth running of whatever sporting events they take upon themselves to organize, no?

Nicholas Comrie 09:38 22.06.2007

Subjective

I agree that in these kinds of situations it is difficult to be subjective, but I think that the press in both countries went a long way to destroy subjectivity in support of sensationalism. As bganon rightly stated a mountainwas made out of a mole hill and it is not something either side should take with them in the future. If Argentina and England can have a match without incidents these days...

As far as passion for the game here in Serbia is concerned, the short-fall is due to greater successes achieved in other sport fields (tennis, basketball, waterpolo) but also because of the relatively low-level of commercialisation. Last year I couldn't even find myself a Serbian football shirt.

And yes I am a fan.

bganon 19:47 22.06.2007

Re: Citizenship

On another issue I might agree its important to establish the nuances involved (ie I see no reason why Serbia should always be targetted when some of those supporters are Bosnian, Croatian or born in other countries) but not in this case as charges were not brought against these people.

Its pretty normal that a country might be the target of foreign media attacks when those that support that country behave in an unlawful way. Even more so if that country has a record of hooliganism. The fans of English clubs competing in Europe this season experienced some pretty rough treatment because of past behaviour of English supporters.

But although this does not seem to apply to the case we are discussing, there is a responsibility that many people dont know (or think) about. Teams such as Zvezda and Partizan subsidise a certain number of their fans from Serbia to go to away games (in Europe etc). That type of thing is exactly why clubs should be fined if the goons behave badly.
On the other hand supporters associations often try to blackmail clubs into granting them special favours. I wonder what made Partizan supporters back down earlier this season? Probably nothing good.

I dont see how the Dutch can be responsible for chants at a football match or what goes on the pitch between England and Serbia. What amazes me is how few people blame the referee in this case - choosing instead to make this a Serbo-English war of sorts.

Remind me didnt a war in the Americas begin after a football match. And dont we know too well where the initial militiamen were hired from when Yugoslavia broke up... Yeah, sporting rivalry is fun but lets not forget the past and what kind of atmosphere can be created with the kinds of statements seen in recent days.

Solomon 14:50 21.06.2007

Across the Atlantic Pond

"a philosophy from across the Atlantic pond" ?
It's truely amazing that you can find a way to blame America for this one. I mean, it takes talent to take the actions of some 20 year old punk from England, playing a European Championship game against Serbia, and deduce that it was somehow caused by "American Philosophies".
"Commercialization of sports", obviously America is to blame. Actually, commercialization of Anything, America is to blame. As if every corporation and every business model was owned and invented by Americans for the soul purpose of deteriorating the European way of life, European culture and your freakin' "Engleshness".
America is NOT destroying the English way of life or European culture or whatever. Get off of that claim cause it's tired!
Look man, I call out America on all the shit it's responsible for... And we're burried in it... But you have to admitt that his is a bit of a Reach.... The kids a punk, a sniveling little twat... That's it... No "Englishness" or the deterioration of western civilization involved... Guy's a dick... Move on.

Nicholas Comrie 09:50 22.06.2007

Re: Across the Atlantic Pond

Americans are the ones that invented win at all costs. I remember watching a show on Discovery in which American contestants shouted at each other and generally tried and put one another off whilst their opponents attempted to balance on some beam. I was shocked and realised why. I had never seen such behaviour in England. Excessive competitiveness breeds to need to win at all costs.

As far as commercialisation is concerned I wasn't actually laying the blame on the US, others are equally guilty.

Destruction of culture: I didn't touch that one and I think you were reading too much into what I had to say. I think that Englishness is largely a construct of foreigners as we aren't really all like the stereotype and some of us try not to be.

As for Derbyshire, you were a little too personal me'thinks.

Solomon 15:44 22.06.2007

Re: Across the Atlantic Pond

And Derbyshire's comments after the game ? ("We all know what kind of country they are..."

Should I as an American state that centuries of English colonialism and racism produces such attitudes where a young Englishman can utter such blatent remarks ?
Americans did not invent competitiveness and the English did not invent Racism, nor did the Serbs invent either.
These are all Human traits... Im personable with Derbyshire cause he's the bastard that did this.... Im not spreading blame on American influences and his Grenadier Guard grandfather fighting in the Bore wars or what-not....
And I absolutely agree with you ... Englishness is a construct of foreigners... As is Americanism ... As is any stereotype.... me'thinks.

tnosugar 14:56 25.06.2007

Re: Across the Atlantic Pond

If we were to trace back the origins of 'win at all costs', I'm afraid we'd be getting back to Adam Smith, Henry the Nth and European mercantilism in general.

The US just applied the philosophy... and perfected it.

You're just sour cause there's no more Empire

milosrdni andjeo 17:58 21.06.2007

Some new moment

Apologize by president of FA England...

Predsednik Fudbalske federacije Engleske Džefri Tomson razgovarao je jutros sa prvim čovekom našeg fudbala Zvezdanom Terzićem i izvinio se zbog žestokih reakcija i nekorektnih izjava koje su usledile nakon duela Engleske i Srbije. Reprezentativci Engleske su žestoko optuživali naše navijače, ali i neke igrače, zbog rasizma, što je izazvalo dosta revolta u našem timu, a izrečene su čak i uvrede na račun našeg naroda i države.

Prema rečima Terzića, Tomson se izvinio zbog takve reakcije, jer smatra da ona nije bila primerena i da se to sigurno ne bi desilo da je on u tom trenutku bio uz reprezentaciju.

Bravo.

zero 18:43 21.06.2007

Re: Some new moment

mislim da bi trebalo i mi njima da se izvinimo...

MMMila 19:04 21.06.2007

Di nadje ovo izvinjenje?

Da i ja vidim:)

milosrdni andjeo 19:08 21.06.2007

Re: Di nadje ovo izvinjenje?

ar ju toking tu mi?:)

http://www.b92.net/sport/fudbal/vesti.php?yyyy=2007&mm=06&dd=21&nav_id=252304

Red Devil 23:33 21.06.2007

Nick mate,

it's not the lack of fair play by the English that infuriates people; it's the blatant English cynicism in playing dumb and calling Derbyshire's act perfectly legitimate while there would have been an uproar had Serbia scored with an English player down injured, in which case we would have been happily branded as a nation of cheats like we are now being called a racist country by your tabloids. It's the "we are so superior" thing showing its ugly head again and people here are not blind. On the other hand, there is no excuse for what those racist idiots did and I would dearly love to see them in a cage next time they do a monkey chant; however, painting the whole of Serbia with that brush is a bit rich from a nation that practically invented racism as we know it.

tnosugar 15:02 25.06.2007

Re: Nick mate,

oh my, so true.

and i think the....

Zulu
Kikuyu
Hindu
Pakistani
Iroquai
Maori
Iraqi
Innuit
Cymraeg
and the list goes on...

would subscribe to that.

milosrdni andjeo 14:56 23.06.2007

and..wtf is this?

GO DUTCH TONIGHT
Brian Reade 23/06/2007
JUST a few words for you to remember if you're watching tonight's Under-21 final between Holland and Serbia: "Wilhelmus van Nassau benik van duitschen bloed. De vaderland getrouwe ben ik tot in de doed. Een prinschen van Oranje ben ik vrij onverveerd, de koning van Hispanje heb ik altijd geeerd."

That's right, it's the Dutch National Anthem. Sing it loud. Sing it proud, I know, like me, you want them to triumph. Who doesn't? The Serbs fans are racist enough as it is. But were they to win the mighty double (in their eyes) of Eurovision Song Contest and European Under-21 Championship, imagine how superior to other races those Aryan sons of Milosovic would feel? Come on you Dutch.

Decidedly U are nations of idiots

tnosugar 15:04 25.06.2007

Re: and..wtf is this?

Grab a Valium man, you're eyes are poppin' out with all that anger in yer.
Imagine all the people...

Red Devil 18:29 25.06.2007

Re: and..wtf is this?

Teano,

that load of crap wasn't posted by the merciful angel, he quoted a British supremacist called Brian Reade and you can find his racist rant on mirror.co.uk, where you will also find my posts (serbissimo) in a fiery debate that came to an amicable end thanks to my perseverance and the passionate albeit not always helpful support of one Draza Mihailovic. Obviously, milosrdni too is appalled as his w(hat) t(he) f(uck) is this headline suggests. Uhuru for Maasai.