Do Rules Matter?

I'll second Hadri. Good piece of writing by Mr Lyon as usual, sharp and straighforward observations.

"zokster (20 Oktobar, 2006 - 16:53)
I'll second Hadri."

Ih bin Tarzan du bist Dzejn lele dunje ranke,
La costa from Morava iz best for opanke!

My condolences to you and your family, Tine and Radojka, on the loss of your beloved instrument

if it smells like it and looks like it...it would not be wise to taste it i think....... vojo's constitution

eternal missunderstanding is taking over.

i don´t think that mr. lyon wants to piss off the serbian people. rather - he wants to help them.

i agree with all of his observations and number 8. is maybe the gretaest hole. kosovo is part of serbia but the kosovo potential voters (900000 of them) is not alowed to vote ? hallo !!!

and, why should he leave us solving our problems alone ?
mr. lyon is a very smart and good man and i am very thankfull that he is wasting his time trying to help "otpisanima".

"nothing can help me,
that´s what i like
cause i dont want to be
SAVED ...."

Your argument proves nothing

Nice try. And what did you want to prove? That we should not have our own opinion and that we have to listen, as blindfolded, all Mr. Lyon and other "who wish the best to us" have to say.

Milan

I never said or implied any such thing. Nor did Mr. Lyon.

And what did you want to prove? Democratic process in the US is not to your liking, therefore Mr. Lyon should not have his opinion on Serbian constitution?

Can you provide any empirical evidence that a two-day referendum predetermines its outcome? Let's see some proof here.

"Can you provide any empirical evidence that a two-day referendum predetermines its outcome? Let's see some proof here."

The empirical and historical proof lays in the fact that the referendum should been held in Serbia.

So by that logic why ever bother having referenda of any sort? Or elections for that matter?

I'm still waiting for an answer to my first question.

"So by that logic why ever bother having referenda of any sort? Or elections for that matter?

Im fully agree with you on that.

There is no plausible reason for why the polling needs to be held over two days. None that corresponds to enhancing the validity of the result, anyway.

How many 'no' votes cast on the 28th do you think will go missing before the 29th? Bear in mind that those in government want a positive result in this referendum, and we are talking about a government with a far from perfect record in relation to corruption. With this in mind, how many of those on the electoral roll who would vote 'no' do you imagine will simply abstain from voting entirely?

Discussion of this nature is completely pointless, because the result of this referendum is a foregone conclusion. The only thing it really serves to highlight is that NGOs in this region (hell, in general), for all the noise they make, have in fact very little capacity to actually effect positive change.

You're right, discussion of this nature is completely pointless because claims are never backed up by clear facts.

In my view, NGOs have little capacity for positive change because they don't address the most pressing issue that hits home to most in Serbia - namely the economy. Just imagine the positive change if more of the resources devoted to complaining by various NGOs were devoted to developing businesses, encouraging entrepreneurs and creating jobs. Here's one example, the ICG spent approx US $290, 000 in Serbia (without Kosmet) in 2005. That's a nice sum of money to start up a small business and employ at least one bright, ambitious young person in this country.

In Canada, for example, voting in elections can take place on the actual polling day or in an "advanced poll" which can take place up to 10 days in advance.

See the link below to the Canada Elections Act (specifically Article 171(2)):
http://www.elections.ca/content.asp?section=loi&document=part10&dir=leg/fel/cea&lang=e&textonly=false

So an international precedent exists for why polling can take place over two days. Good enough for Canada, good enough for Serbia I say.

"Good enough for Canada, good enough for Serbia I say."

I suspect you're pulling our legs with such comments as above.

Just merely responding to the claim that "There is no plausible reason for why the polling needs to be held over two days." (Maybe Michael would like to start an NGO in Canada, perhaps even financed by the ICG, to convince Canadians on the need to amend their elections act.)

Are you suggesting that Serbia shouldn't take ques from countries such as Canada and their polling laws?

Im just suggesting that you can't draw paralels between Serbia and Canada or, for that matter, any Western democratic country.

So where should Serbia look for inspiration and best practices?

suggest Czech Republic. They have been voting for last 2 days and they obviously know how to do it. I mean, since nobody's raised question about the regularity of their electoral procedure. Or, maybe I'm wrong? What do ICG say?

You're not responding though, are you? I do not think the Serbian parliament looked to Canada for a model for the referendum. Aside from that, the electoral rules in Canada (as per that link) do not provide for opening the polls to everyone for an extended period of time: there are specific, strict rules governing advanced polling, as set out in that document.

The fact remains that there is no reason why the polling for this election needs to be open to all for more than a single day. There will be exceptions in certain circumstances (for instance, for those who need to cast their ballot in absentia), but in this particular case there is no reason other than to dissuade Serbian citizens from casting a 'no' vote.

If you must know, Peter Milliken, Speaker of the Canadian Parliament has actively participated and encouraged greater cooperation and assistance for Serbian Parliamentary reform. This includes facilitating exchanges and technical assistance between Canadian and Serbian parliamentarians and between Elections Canada and the REC.

In Canada, as long as you're a registered voter you can participate in an advanced poll.

I'm still waiting for clear evidence based on your first post: "The simple fact that the referendum is to be held over two days predetermines the outcome." I don't think I'm asking for too much.

True:Canada does help Sebia, from the level of the parliament (and Speaker), but also through "Parliamentary Center" from Canada (see: adoption of Law on Audit in Serbia - it was done by cooperation with Canadian experts and PC)
Problem: last week RIK had a disscusion about should they make a decision that "EXTRA votes in the box, or the fact that control list is NOT in the box SHOULD NOT be the reason for false voting!?" At the end, they decided that commisions in municipalities would decide on "false voting" only if procedures were "seriosly violated", and WHAT is "seriosly violating procedures" WAS NOT given. Lack of clearness about voting days and a lot of doubts about regularity of referendum procedures are inevitable consequences of the lack of the proper procedure for the process of adopting the proposal of the constitution. Two days for referendum, and the Law on Referendum says "day" (singular, not plural), no "silence" whatsoever, Albanians can not vote, Muslim community stated "obstain or no", lack of clearness about the role of courts if complains appears, no clear deadlines for decision making process, no clear answer on question "what happens with the box over night?", not A SINGLE document from RIK in public (see: www.rik.parlament.sr.gov.yu - it is EMPTY, lack of decision (that HAD TO BE MADE) that RIK changes from "repubilic" to "referendum" commision. Need more?
And the reports will be "under the circumstances, the referendum process could be seen as democratic and fair one...", as it always is when so many people at home and abroad have the assesments based on wrong premises "that procedures and rules do not matter if "higher interests" are in question". The price for such assesments is always high, but why should anyone from outside care? You do not live here, I do. And I care, because rules do matter. If we keep silent about the possible irregularities on referendum, than we will have to be silent next time as well, and the next time will come. That is also inevitable.

Why do you think anyone would have to "steal" the referendum? It's going to pass (see: Cesid).

When I see who's behind the boycott and what utterly ridiculous reasons they cite (and therefore insult my intelligence), it only makes me even more pro-ref. I read the draft 24hrs after it had been adopted and 95% of it is fine by me. I've made up my mind.

I am not going to boycott it just because I don't like 5% of it.

The point is - the overwhelming majority of the articles are acceptable to the majority of the electorate. That's why the draft will pass with flying colours.

Get over it, quangos.

Thanks for the update. I did do my homework. The EU news broke after I posted the blog. The other after I had written it on late Thursday. Its impossible to follow everything. I have updated the text.

to hear that there will be independent monitors. I still think that the opposition together with the NGOs in the region have absolutely no power to influence anything. Rather than calling for boycott of the referendum in my opinion they should have played a better political game and got themselves in the position they can actually influence something and make a real contribution.

Instead it seems that they have just further cut themselves off from the first group that is in clear majority - poor strategy.

Peter - I am glad that finally someone has mentioned one real issue - economy !!! Serbia must start to focus on the major problems and solve them - otherwise it cannot move on. Serbia's only future lies in growing and developing the economy and the business. The prosperity will then follow naturally from the free market, competition, proper adherence to the anti-monopoly laws, transparency, independence of judiciary ...proper laws securing and guaranteeing protection for the foreign investors, minority shareholders etc....but it is so much easier to focus on the irrelevant constitution.

The priority should also be to focus on the economic relations with Kosovo and work towards establishing trade with Kosovo, getting good commercial deals between Serbia and Kosovo as that is the only way forward.