Srebrenica - zločin i crna mrlja na srpskom obrazu

Drago Kovacevic RSS / 10.07.2007. u 12:10

Evo, dvanaest je godina od zlocina u Srebrenici, zlocina koji je medjunarodni sud pravde u Hagu kvalifikovao kao genocid. Pobijeno je u toj nedelji, sredinom jula 1995. godine, prema zvanicnim podacima više od 7.000 ljudi. Bilo ih je od 14 do 94 godine, bilo je i dece. Pobijeni,zakopani, pa onda skrivan zlocin, tela prebacivana u sekundarne grobnice, negiran zlocin, i tako, pored presuda od strane najviših medjunarodnih institucija, krivicnog suda za ratne zlocine i suda za medjunarodnu pravdu u Hagu, ta negacija i danas traje. Vecinsko mišljenje u Srbiji, podržano, stimulirano i formirano od strane vlasti i nacionalnih institucija usmereno je tako da zlocin negira i da ga relativizuje. Skupština Srbije nema snage da donese rezoluciju u kojoj bi rekla da država Srbije žali zbog pocinjenog genocida i da je spremna da ucini potrebne korake da sacuva dostojanstvo žrtava, da obešteti porodice i da ucini one mere koje bi pomogle pomirenju i mirnom životu buducih generacija. Javna propaganda u Srbiji pokušava sve kako bi zlocin relativizovala ako ga vec ne može potpuno negirati. Sada se više ne govori koliko je bilo žrtava nego se Srbrenici suprostavlja Bratunac kao argumenat. Da se razumemo. Zlocin je pocinjen i u Bratuncu. I o tome treba pricati. Ali zlocin u Bratuncu ne može nikome biti izgovor za pocinjeni genocid. Krajnje je nemoralno suprostavljati i stavljati jedne nasuprot drugih žrtve zlocina u Srebrenici i Bratuncu. Ono što bi pokazalo snagu Srbije i srpskoga društva jeste jasna, nedvosmislena, široka osuda pocinjenoga genocida u Srebrenici. I to ne samo izvinjenjima i simbolickim aktima. To je potrebno izraziti obeštecenjem porodica žrtava, donošenjem zakona o zabrani negiranja genocida, unošenjem te cinjenice u udžbenike istorije i cinjenje svih napora da se stvori sistem vrednosti koji ce sramotu nanetu u julu 1995. godine bar malo ublazavati. Tek onda je moguce ocekivati i da se Bratunac adekvatno tretira. Srebrenica se tice svih nas, jer je to zlocin cinjen u naše ime....i svi smo dužni zbog buducnosti da radimo na tretiranju zlocina onako kako on jedino zaslužuje. Jasnom osudom i distanciranjem od toga... Drago Kovacevic's blog • Add new comment levitan's picture "



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Virtuelni Vasilije Virtuelni Vasilije 13:33 10.07.2007

Drago,

slazem se sa tobom da je to sto se desilo u Srebrenici "crna mrlja na srpskom obrazu". Iskreno receno nikad nisam moga ni da razumem nekog ko je u stanju da se dici svojim (srpskim) narodom i njegovom istorijom a da se ne osudi ovako nesto.

Drago
Javna propaganda u Srbiji pokušava sve kako bi zlocin relativizovala ako ga vec ne može potpuno negirati. Sada se više ne govori koliko je bilo žrtava nego se Srbrenici suprostavlja Bratunac kao argumenat.


Ako je ovako kako ti kazes onda bi to bilo vrlo ruzno ... posto svaki zlocin stoji sam za sebe i nikako se jedan zlocin ne moze opravdati drugim. Ali meni si cini da je ova tvoja ocena preterana i previse uopstena posto ja nisam imao prilike u zadnje vreme da procitam u nasoj stampi(onoliko koliko je pratim preko neta) ovako nesto. Meni izgleda kao moguce da takav stav imaju neke ekstremno desne partije kao sto je SRS ali to onda ipak ne bi smelo da se pretvara u pausalne ocene o "javnoj propagandi" ... sto ti kao predstavnik opozicione partije ocigledno radis i pokusavas da "izmislis" krivicu aktuelne vlasti i tamo gde je nema ...

Drago
Da se razumemo. Zlocin je pocinjen i u Bratuncu. I o tome treba pricati. Ali zlocin u Bratuncu ne može nikome biti izgovor za pocinjeni genocid. Krajnje je nemoralno suprostavljati i stavljati jedne nasuprot drugih žrtve zlocina u Srebrenici i Bratuncu. .


Ovo potpisujem i ja. Jedino sto na ovom blogu nisam imao prilike da procitam da je iko od onih sto neprestano pisu o Srebrenici ikad pomenuo Bratunac. Pa mi nije jasno ZASTO se takve stvari iskljucuju??? Ako je vec prirodno da se mi zalazemo da zlocinci budu privedeni pravdi i da pri tom PRETEZNO obracamo paznju na one koji su eventualno medju nama, tesko je razumeti KAKO I ZASTO neko stalno odaje postu zrtvama jedne nacionalnosti a one druge precutkuje? Ne znam, ali meni kao jedino objasnjenje pada na pamet zloupotreba zrtava u politicke svrhe ...
To sto se pomenuti zlocini ne mogu uporedivati niti izjednacavati, ne znaci da se o njima ne moze govoriti u istom kontekstu kad se recimo pokusava objasniti i razumeti sve sto se desilo ... kao i u svim slicnim pokusajima kad je u pitanju ljudsko ponasanje - ma koliko ono bilo NELJUDSKO ...

Drago
To je potrebno izraziti obeštecenjem porodica žrtava, donošenjem zakona o zabrani negiranja genocida.


Sa ovim se vec ne slazem. Drzava Srbija nije odgovorna za zlocin u Srebrenici pa ne vidim da ona treba da isplacuje neka obestecenja zrtvama. Ok ona JESTE pruzala ekonomsku i vojnu pomoc RS i u tom smislu snosi deo odgvornosti ali i druge drzave su pomagale durge strane koje su cinile zlocine pa ne znaci da su automatski krive za te zlocine. Naravno ne mislim ja da ne drzava Srbija ne bi trebala da pruzi pomoc tim zrtvama onliko koliko je u njenoj moci ... ali tu vec NE VIDIM da bi recimo trebalo da izdvaja zrtve Srebrenice od drugih zrtava u Bosni ...

pozz
sabi sabi 14:25 10.07.2007

Re: Drago,

Drzava Srbija nije odgovorna za zlocin u Srebrenici pa ne vidim da ona treba da isplacuje neka obestecenja zrtvama. Ok ona JESTE pruzala ekonomsku i vojnu pomoc RS i u tom smislu snosi deo odgvornosti ali i druge drzave su pomagale durge strane koje su cinile zlocine pa ne znaci da su automatski krive za te zlocine

Ne, nego je moj deda iz groba otisao da postrelja ljude u Srebrenici...Hajte molim vas.

Licno mislim da sva blaga ovog sveta ne bi mogla da mi nadoknade gubitak brata ili sina ili muza ili oca ili...Ali bi mi makar to pruzilo neku satisfakciju.

I samo jos nesto, ja sam Bosnjakinja koja je rodjena i zivi u Srbiji, ali osudjujem svaki zlocin, bez obzira s koje strane dosao. Sve su majke, sestre iste,... Sve jednako boli,...Samo, ovih dana je godisnjica Srebrenice, pa se o tome vise govori.
Urosh Urosh 14:34 10.07.2007

Re: Drago,

sabi
Drzava Srbija nije odgovorna za zlocin u Srebrenici pa ne vidim da ona treba da isplacuje neka obestecenja zrtvama. Ok ona JESTE pruzala ekonomsku i vojnu pomoc RS i u tom smislu snosi deo odgvornosti ali i druge drzave su pomagale durge strane koje su cinile zlocine pa ne znaci da su automatski krive za te zlocineNe, nego je moj deda iz groba otisao da postrelja ljude u Srebrenici...Hajte molim vas.Licno mislim da sva blaga ovog sveta ne bi mogla da mi nadoknade gubitak brata ili sina ili muza ili oca ili...Ali bi mi makar to pruzilo neku satisfakciju. I samo jos nesto, ja sam Bosnjakinja koja je rodjena i zivi u Srbiji, ali osudjujem svaki zlocin, bez obzira s koje strane dosao. Sve su majke, sestre iste,... Sve jednako boli,...Samo, ovih dana je godisnjica Srebrenice, pa se o tome vise govori.

Drzava Srbija JESTE odgovorna za NECINJENJE, tj. za NESPRECAVANJE genocida u Srebrenici.
Drugo, ako nije odgovorna, zasto je onda Mladic imao srbijansku penziju i zasto je Srbija pruzala ekonomsku i vojnu pomoc tzv.RS?
Trece, tacno je da sve jednako boli, ali mnogo vise boli bezdusnost ljudi u ovoj zemlji glede zlocina ucinjenih od strane srpske snage.
I laz, i nasilje, i relativizacija zlocina.
To mnogo vise boli od bilo kakvog zlocina.
Ta autoanestezija, ta umrtvljenost mozgova i srca, koja nas sprecava da budemo normalno drustvo normalnih i zdravih ljudi, koje zali SVAKU nesrecu.
Ni za cunami 2004/2005 nismo stajali i cutali, ni za Novu godinu, ni 5.januara, niti 9.januara.
Cetvrto, ti si gradjanka Srbije, sta si po nacionalnosti, nije bitno, imas samo i iskljucivo ljudsku krv.
A za ostale-"How much can fit in 21 grams?
How much is lost?"
Urosh Urosh 14:36 10.07.2007

Re: Drago,

Urosh

sabiDrzava Srbija nije odgovorna za zlocin u Srebrenici pa ne vidim da ona treba da isplacuje neka obestecenja zrtvama. Ok ona JESTE pruzala ekonomsku i vojnu pomoc RS i u tom smislu snosi deo odgvornosti ali i druge drzave su pomagale durge strane koje su cinile zlocine pa ne znaci da su automatski krive za te zlocineNe, nego je moj deda iz groba otisao da postrelja ljude u Srebrenici...Hajte molim vas.Licno mislim da sva blaga ovog sveta ne bi mogla da mi nadoknade gubitak brata ili sina ili muza ili oca ili...Ali bi mi makar to pruzilo neku satisfakciju. I samo jos nesto, ja sam Bosnjakinja koja je rodjena i zivi u Srbiji, ali osudjujem svaki zlocin, bez obzira s koje strane dosao. Sve su majke, sestre iste,... Sve jednako boli,...Samo, ovih dana je godisnjica Srebrenice, pa se o tome vise govori.Drzava Srbija JESTE odgovorna za NECINJENJE, tj. za NESPRECAVANJE genocida u Srebrenici.Drugo, ako nije odgovorna, zasto je onda Mladic imao srbijansku penziju i zasto je Srbija pruzala ekonomsku i vojnu pomoc tzv.RS? Trece, tacno je da sve jednako boli, ali mnogo vise boli bezdusnost ljudi u ovoj zemlji glede zlocina ucinjenih od strane srpskih snaga.I laz, i nasilje, i relativizacija zlocina.To mnogo vise boli od bilo kakvog zlocina.Ta autoanestezija, ta umrtvljenost mozgova i srca, koja nas sprecava da budemo normalno drustvo normalnih i zdravih ljudi, koje zali SVAKU nesrecu.Ni za cunami 2004/2005 nismo stajali i cutali, ni za Novu godinu, ni 5.januara, niti 9.januara.Cetvrto, ti si gradjanka Srbije, sta si po nacionalnosti, nije bitno, imas samo i iskljucivo ljudsku krv.A za ostale-"How much can fit in 21 grams?How much is lost?"

Drago Kovacevic Drago Kovacevic 15:26 10.07.2007

Re: Drago,

@ Vasilije..
Taman kad pomislim da smo se slozili ti napravis dva "gafa". Prvi tako karaktersistican - "Srbija nije kriva".
I drugi kako ja ovo pisem stranacki.
Zato, evo pro;itaj i ovaj tekst objavljen u "Danasovom" podlistku "Beton"..Mozda te razdrma..

Piše: Branislav Jakovljević
KRALJEVO, KRAGUJEVAC... SREBRENICA
Protiv kulture beščašća


*
„Odjednom je počelo da puca. Okrenuo sam se prema zapadu i pao na zemlju. U istom trenutku, na mene su pali i moji drugovi i pokrili me. Znao sam da nigde nisam povređen. Mitraljez je prestao da puca. Čuli su se samo jauci, kukanje i ropac drugova koji su još bili živi. Zatim su se čuli puščani pucnji. Ovi pucnji su se čuli sve bliže meni. [...] Kako su mi se sve bliže približavali, razmišljao sam o tome gde će zrno da me pogodi i hoće li da me ubije, ili samo rani“.
*
„Pao sam dole, i ne znam šta se onda dogodilo. Nisam razmišljao. Nije bila moja ideja da prvo padnem i tako preživim, samo sam pomislio da je kraj. Ne znam da li sam u tom trenutku ležao bez svesti, možda sam bio još uvek svestan, ali ne mogu tačno da se setim tog trenutka. Sve što znam je da, dok sam ležao dole, osetio sam bol u u desnoj strani grudi. Osetio sam bol na desnoj strani, ali ne znam da li sam bio ranjen, i osetio sam bol u desnoj ruci. I patio sam. Ali sam nastavio da ležim tako na stomaku sa glavom okrenutom u desno. Pored mene je bio čovek koji je dosta ječao. Ne znam da li je bio pogođen, možda je bio skoro mrtav. Ne znam ko je to bio. Sve što sam mogao da čujem bili su njegovi jauci. I ja sam patio, ali nisam vikao. Nisam kukao. Ne znam koliko ozbiljno sam bio ranjen. Čekao sam na još jedan metak da me pogodi i čekao sam da umrem“.

Ova dva sećanja sa masovnih stratišta predstavljaju iskustvo koje je možda suštinsko za dvadeseti vek: iskustvo masovnog, administrativno sprovedenog pogubljenja; iskustvo birokratski obezličene smrti; iskustvo potpuno proizvoljnog ubijanja, i isto tako slučajnog preživljavanja; iskustvo, zapravo osećaj, daha masovne smrti na potiljku, fizički pritisak mrtvih tela i onih koji polako, u mukama umiru; kao i iskustvo nemoćnog iščekivanja smrti, osluškivanja njenih glasova, njenih koraka, njenog rasuđivanja i njenog začuđujuće ljudskog lika. To je, rečju, susret sa smrću u statističkom paklu dvadesetog veka, u kome brojke, krajnji zbir i „čist račun“ postaju vredniji od svetosti svakog pojedinačnog života, i svake pojedinačne smrti.
Prvo od ova dva svedočanstva potiče iz masovnog streljanja u Kraljevu oktobra 1941. godine. Drugo, iz masovnog streljanja u Srebrenici jula 1995. Stavljajući ova dva iskaza jedan pored drugog, nije mi namera da uspostavim analogiju između zločina koji se desio nad Srbima i zločina koji su počinili njihovi sunarodnici. Još manje mi je namera da relativizujem jedan i drugi događaj u ime bezličnog, bezimenog i prečesto zloupotrebljenog humanizma. Na ovo poređenje podstakla me je poseta stratištu u Potočarima u julu ove godine (2004). Prizor koji sam tamo zatekao učinio mi se kao odjek onoga što sam, odrastajući u Kraljevu, doživljavao svakog oktobra: od fabričkih hala pretvorenih u sabirne centre, masovnosti pomena u kojoj se donekle ogleda masovnost zločina, sve do jezive sličnosti same topografije spomen parka (u oba slučaja radi se o nekoj vrsti prirodnog amfiteatra), i do ponavljanja opomene da se zločin više nikada ne ponovi. Zbog svega ovoga, kao i zbog zajedničkog iskustva preživljavanja masovnog pogubljenja stanovništva, gradovi kao što su Kraljevo i Srebrenica trebalo bi da imaju malo bolje i malo dublje razumevanje jedan za drugog. Zbog toga, ne zbog nostalgičnog „bratstva-jedinstva“ trebalo je da u Srebrenici bude tuce autobusa iz Kraljeva - umesto toga, došla su jedva dva autobusa iz čitave Srbije. Ali i zbog još nečeg: način na koji se ova dva događaja pamte i zaboravljaju govore rečito ne samo o prošlosti, nego i o budućnosti. I ne samo o bivšoj ideologiji, nego, još važnije, o jednoj ideologiji u nastajanju.

Razlike između dva događaja su rečite koliko i sličnosti. Dok su žrtve kraljevačkog streljanja ostale anonimne, u Srebrenici se žrtve ukopavaju pod imenom i
prezimenom. To je, sa jedne strane, rezultat savremene tehnologije koja omogućava preciznu identifikaciju žrtava. Sa druge strane, skorija istoriografija upozorava na političko „licitiranje“ brojem mrtvih u masovnim zločinima u Kraljevu i Kragujevcu, koje je počelo odmah po završetku Drugog svetskog rata i dostiglo vrhunac početkom sedamdesetih. Ista istraživanja upućuju na transformacije u načinu obeležavanja ovih događaja u istom razdoblju, od parastosa i okupljanja porodica nastradalih do masovnih muzičko-scenskih svečanosti. U tom razdoblju, u Kraljevu je iznikao spomen park u kome su masovne grobnice obeležene redovima posečenih stabala. Sećam se da se govorilo da jedan grob izdvojen od ostalih pripada nemačkom vojniku koji je i sam streljan pošto je odbio da puca u nevine ljude. U Potočarima takvog groba nema. To može da tumači kako ko hoće. Ja bih se zadržao samo na tome da se čak i taj detalj uklapa u zvaničnu politiku SFRJ iz šezdesetih i sedamdesetih. Naime, trebalo je nekako ublažiti paradoks koji je nastao kada je tradicionalni krvnik počeo da zapošljava i hrani hiljade radnika koje naša industrija nije uspela da zaposli.
Na kraju, ono na šta ukazuje novija istoriografija o zločinu u Kraljevu jeste zastrašujuća ideja nasilnog saobražavanja zločina jednoj ideologiji. Poslednjih trinaest godina, kritika te ideologije korišćena je da se objasne uzroci novih zločina i novih krvoprolića, u kojima su Srbi često bili počinioci, a ne žrtve. Jedna ideologija, bezbedno smeštena u prošlost, korišćena je kao univerzalni odgovor na sva pitanja koja se tiču ne samo istorije, već i sadašnjosti. Uz to, evidentni su žurba i napor da se između nas i tih događaja sa početka i sredine devedesetih uspostavi što veća istorijska distanca. Sada je više nego ikada potreban zaokret od strategije zaborava ka strategiji pamćenja. „Licitiranje“ brojem mrtvih u Kraljevu i Kragujevcu pripada istom ideološkom obrascu koji se trudi da zločine kao što je onaj u Srebrenici potisne, i da ih svede na cenkanje sa Haškim tribunalom. I u jednom i u drugom slučaju radi se o instrumentalizaciji smrti. Ako se usudimo da imena gradova Kraljevo, Kragujevac i Srebrenica izgovorimo u istoj rečenici, to nije radi osude ili krivice, ili bilo kakvog uopštavanja te vrste, već radi iskoraka iz jedne kulture beščašća. Ona nema ni nacionalnost, ni granice, već se ogleda u zaboravljanju, mehanizaciji, ignorisanju i unižavanju smrti, tuđe i svoje


Virtuelni Vasilije Virtuelni Vasilije 16:13 10.07.2007

Re: Drago,

Ako se usudimo da imena gradova Kraljevo, Kragujevac i Srebrenica izgovorimo u istoj rečenici, to nije radi osude ili krivice, ili bilo kakvog uopštavanja te vrste, već radi iskoraka iz jedne kulture beščašća. Ona nema ni nacionalnost, ni granice, već se ogleda u zaboravljanju, mehanizaciji, ignorisanju i unižavanju smrti, tuđe i svoje


E pa vidis Drago, ja sam pre neki mesec bas izgovorio reci "Kragujevac" i "Srebrenica" zajedno rekavsi I kad se recimo desila Srebrenica meni odmah bilo jasno da se radi o strasnom ratnom zlocinu a prva asocijacija mi bilo streljanje u Kragujevcu (zahvaljujuci ovom "pogodak pretrazivanju" na b92 lako nadjoh: stari blog Jasmine Tesanovic post "e pufno, dal' sam ja patak ili ti patkica ..." - druga strana). A sada vidim da nisam prvi/jedini kome je tako nesto palo na pamet ...

Inace ceo tekst bih mogao i ja da napisem. Mozda bih samo malo dodao da se licitiranje brojevima ne desava samo na jednoj strani, niti se tu uvek radi samo o umanjivanju zrtava - nego ponekad i o uvecavanju, a opet iz ruznih i prljavih politickih razloga. A jedno od najruznijih licitiranja/umanjivanja je kad se zrtve/zlocini precutkuju(pa samim tim broj zrtava svodi na nulu) ... protiv cega se ja ovde na blogu ponekad bunim ...

pozz

ps. A to koliko si ti u stanju da se izdignes iznad politickih interesa svoje partije neka procene citaoci - o tome ne vredi da diskutujemo Ja sam ti vec odao priznanje (sto je veliki minus za tvoju politicku karijeru ... mislim na to moje priznanje:)))) da si jedan od najrazumnijih i najumerenijh od predstavnika te politicke opcije na ovom blogu. Uostalom to si dokazao i time sto si ponovo ovde i sto si uvideo da vam je onaj vas "strajk" bio bezvezan
Virtuelni Vasilije Virtuelni Vasilije 16:55 10.07.2007

Re: Drago,

sabi
I samo jos nesto, ja sam Bosnjakinja koja je rodjena i zivi u Srbiji, ali osudjujem svaki zlocin, bez obzira s koje strane dosao. Sve su majke, sestre iste,... Sve jednako boli,...Samo, ovih dana je godisnjica Srebrenice, pa se o tome vise govori.


Sabi, ovo ste vrlo lepo rekli i tu se APSOLUTNO slazemo. I mislim da se sa ovakvim LJUDSKIM stavom slaze najveci deo normalnih ljudi. Oni koji misle drugacije su po meni ili zrtve politickih manipulacija ili su sami ti manipulatori ... Naravno da je normalno da se sada vise govori o Srebrenici kad je ovih dana godisnjica i da ne bi cak bilo ni u redu bas sad objaviti blog o Bratuncu. Ono sto sam ja pisao se odnosilo na period od skoro godinu dana od kad sam ja na blogu i na one koji skoro svakog meseca nadju neki povod da pisu o Srebrenici a o Bratuncu im nikad nije palo na pamet ... A meni posebno smeta kad posumnjam da se tu radi o politici a ne o ljudskosti i/ili pravdi - pa politika je u krajnjoj liniji za sve i kriva ...


Ne, nego je moj deda iz groba otisao da postrelja ljude u Srebrenici...Hajte molim vas.[%
Virtuelni Vasilije Virtuelni Vasilije 16:55 10.07.2007

Re: Drago,

sabi
I samo jos nesto, ja sam Bosnjakinja koja je rodjena i zivi u Srbiji, ali osudjujem svaki zlocin, bez obzira s koje strane dosao. Sve su majke, sestre iste,... Sve jednako boli,...Samo, ovih dana je godisnjica Srebrenice, pa se o tome vise govori.


Sabi, ovo ste vrlo lepo rekli i tu se APSOLUTNO slazemo. I mislim da se sa ovakvim LJUDSKIM stavom slaze najveci deo normalnih ljudi. Oni koji misle drugacije su po meni ili zrtve politickih manipulacija ili su sami ti manipulatori ... Naravno da je normalno da se sada vise govori o Srebrenici kad je ovih dana godisnjica i da ne bi cak bilo ni u redu bas sad objaviti blog o Bratuncu. Ono sto sam ja pisao se odnosilo na period od skoro godinu dana od kad sam ja na blogu i na one koji skoro svakog meseca nadju neki povod da pisu o Srebrenici a o Bratuncu im nikad nije palo na pamet ... A meni posebno smeta kad posumnjam da se tu radi o politici a ne o ljudskosti i/ili pravdi - pa politika je u krajnjoj liniji za sve i kriva ...


Ne, nego je moj deda iz groba otisao da postrelja ljude u Srebrenici...Hajte molim vas.


Pa sta da vam kazem, nije ni vas ni moj deda to uradio ... i ja sam za to da ZLOCINICI budu kaznjeni bez obzira odakle su dosli ... Ja sam sve ovo vreme bio informisan iz izvora/medija koji bi trebalo da budu neutralniji nego sto su nasi (pod "nasi" mislim na sve zaracene strane u ex-Yu), pa ikao ne verujem nikom APSOLUTNO cini mi se da nije nista sporno kad se radi o tome ko je i kako izvrsio te zlocine (jedino sto ce broj civilnih zrtava i vojnika poginulih u borbama ostati verovatno zauvek nerazjasnjen) ... zato ja mislim tako kako mislim. A vama mogu samo da preporucim izvestaj holandske vlade koji se nalazi na netu i koji je daleko najozbiljnije, najobimnije i najneutralnije istrazivanje u vezi tih dogadjaja (engleski i "naski").

pozz

ps. Ono sto mi smeta je svakako i pokusaji nametanja "kolektivne krivice" - svi zlocinici IMAJU svoje ime pa je glupo optuzivati i bosanske Srbe pausalno. Naravno svi ljudi na prostrima ex-Yu snose deo krivice sto su dozvolili da ih njihova politicka vodjstva manipulisu umesto da su svi zajedno usli u EU mnogo pre svih ostalih istocnoevropskih naroda. E kad su poceli da se dele onda je bilo jasno da se nista dobro nece desiti. I ne vidim zasto bi bosanski Srbi bili krivlji zato sto nisu hteli da se izdvoje iz zemlje koja im je bila domovina nego recimo Hrvati iz BiH koji su isto zeleli da se izdvoje ili sad Albanci ... ili Slovenci ili Hrvati iz Hrvatske ... Pa ustalom i ovaj nas "blogovski" domacin Drago je, koliko sam razumeo, bio uticajan u RSK sto znaci da se borio za izdvajanje (ili bar autonomiju) iz Hrvatske ...
Virtuelni Vasilije Virtuelni Vasilije 17:04 10.07.2007

Sorry Drago,

ili je moj "browser" poludeo ili je bio neki drugi problom - vidim samo da je jedan isti post poslat vise puta (pet-sest puta valjda) ... najbolje da suvisne obrises :)
Drago Kovacevic Drago Kovacevic 17:18 10.07.2007

Re: Drago,

Vasilije,
Opet podmeces. Ja sam bio uticajan, ali se nisam borio za to sto ti kazes, nego za opstanak u Hrvatskoj moje porodice i ostalih ljudi koji su odatle oterani, za to da ne bude etnickog ciscenja i da se nadje politicko resenje. Na izborima u decembru, 1993. provedenim u Krajini, ta politika je pobedila, ali je sva vlast ostalaq u rukama Slobinih sluzbi. Mi smo dogurali do plana z - 4, ali su Milosevic i Tudjman u najvecoj saradnji sa Mladicem i Karadzicem uspeli da onemoguce takav razvoj dogadjaja. Uspeli su da zajedno izbace Srbe iz Hrvatske kako bi delili BIH i izbacene naselili tamo odakle su poterali Bosnjake i Hrvate. Tudjman je tamo odakle je oterao Srbe naselio Hrvate iz BIH.
Zlocin prema Srbima iy Hrvatske napravili su zajedno Milosevic, Tudjman, Karadzic i Mladic u saradnji sa Milosevicevim slugama u Krajini poput Martica.
Virtuelni Vasilije Virtuelni Vasilije 21:52 10.07.2007

Re: Drago,

Drago Kovacevic
Vasilije,Opet podmeces. Ja sam bio uticajan, ali se nisam borio za to sto ti kazes, nego za opstanak u Hrvatskoj moje porodice i ostalih ljudi koji su odatle oterani, za to da ne bude etnickog ciscenja i da se nadje politicko resenje. Na izborima u decembru, 1993. provedenim u Krajini, ta politika je pobedila, ali je sva vlast ostalaq u rukama Slobinih sluzbi. Mi smo dogurali do plana z - 4, ali su Milosevic i Tudjman u najvecoj saradnji sa Mladicem i Karadzicem uspeli da onemoguce takav razvoj dogadjaja. Uspeli su da zajedno izbace Srbe iz Hrvatske kako bi delili BIH i izbacene naselili tamo odakle su poterali Bosnjake i Hrvate. Tudjman je tamo odakle je oterao Srbe naselio Hrvate iz BIH.Zlocin prema Srbima iy Hrvatske napravili su zajedno Milosevic, Tudjman, Karadzic i Mladic u saradnji sa Milosevicevim slugama u Krajini poput Martica.


Izvini Drago,

nisam imao pravo da govorim u tvoje ime posto ne znam za sta si se ti licno borio, to sam ja napisao onako kako sam shvatio da se ondasnja vlast RSK borila/zalagala (pa plan z-4 je valjda i bio o odredjenoj autonomiji) ... a nisam sigurno ni bolje informisan od tebe. Mada i tvoje inofmacije primam sa rezervom posto i ti kao i ostali ucesnici pricate sa svojih politickih pozicija (ondasnjih i sadasnjih).

Inace ja nemam nikakvih razloga da "podmecem" posto o svemu nemam nikakvih posebnih informacija. Mogu samo da kazem ono cega se secam kao citalac a i kao obican gradjanin koji je imao prilike da prica sa ljudima koji su pobegli iz Krajine.

Kao prvo, nisam nikad ni imao utisak da je OGROMNA vecina Srba iz Hrvatske uposte zelela da ode iz Jugoslavije (sto je i logicno imajuci u vidu Tudjmanovu proustasku politiku). Sto se tice politike koju su vodila srpska rukovodstva u Srbiji, RS i RSK ne secam se da je bilo bitnih razlika. U pocetku su svi bili za to da Srbi u delovima BiH i HR u kojima su bili vecina ostanu u zajednickoj zemlji a kasnije, posle medjunardonog priznavanja bivsih republika, su morali da popustaju u svojim zahtevima. U tom smislu je Milosevic cak bio popustljiviji nego kolege iz RS i RSK, posebno kad je MZ uvela sankcije, posto je njemu ipak pre svega bila najbitnija njegova vlast u Srbiji.

Koliko se ja secam, on je valjda bio isto raspolozen da se prihvati plan z-4, ali vodjstvo RSK nije bilo za to??? Evo bacih pogled na englesko izdanje vikipedije pa vidim da i tamo pise nesto slicno. Uostalom Hrvatska ne bi nikad bila u stanju da savlada RSK da je Srbija stala na njenu stranu ... a koliko ja znam Srbija se nije mesala ne zbog nekog dogovora Milosevic/Tudjman nego zbog pritiska medjunarodne zajednice i sankcija. I svakako ne zato sto je Milosevicu bilo "stalo" do toga da Srbi budu proterani iz Hrvatske u Srbiju. To toliko nelogicno zvuci da mi je zbilja tesko da poverujem u tvoju objektivnost ... Naravno nije to bio cilj ni Marticu ni Babicu ... ali su ocigledno pogresno procenili situaciju.

Prica se ponovila delimicno posle i sa BiH pa je MZ najlakse uspela da se dogovori sa Milosevicem koji je opet najpre popustio. Samo sto je tog puta rukovodstvo bosanskih Srba pouceno prethodnim iskustvom iz RSK pristalo odmah na sve...

A sto se tice Tudjmana i Milosevica, oni su mogli da se dogovore samo o podeli Bosne, i to onog "muslimanskog" dela a ne da ustupaju jedan drugom ono sto su smatrali da je "njihovo" ...

pozz
G r o f G r o f 23:38 10.07.2007

Re: Drago,

a koliko ja znam Srbija se nije mesala ne zbog nekog dogovora Milosevic/Tudjman nego zbog pritiska medjunarodne zajednice i sankcija. I svakako ne zato sto je Milosevicu bilo "stalo" do toga da Srbi budu proterani iz Hrvatske u Srbiju. To toliko nelogicno zvuci da mi je zbilja tesko da poverujem u tvoju objektivnost ... Naravno nije to bio cilj ni Marticu ni Babicu ... ali su ocigledno pogresno procenili situaciju.


Srbija se mešala na jedan podmukao način. Lajala je kao krezubi pas umesto da kaže otvoreno, mi vam ne možemo pomoći. Nisu Martić i Babić (a nije ih ni krasila neka inteligencija) pogrešno procenili situaciju, već su naivno verovali u taj lavež.
Ništa se nije promenilo. Samo su glave okrenute prema Kosovu i opet se laje. . i opet nema ko da kaže Srbima na Kosovu, ne slušajte lajanje .
...Čak i ako se izuzme moralna strana , "Srebrenica" je produkt maloumnosti i imbecilizma. Ko je još mogao biti toliko glup ,da u onakvim uslovima izaziva bes MZ nepotrebnim ubijanjem.
vucko vucko 00:33 11.07.2007

Re: Drago,

Grofe,

tvoji postovi su mi inače uglavnom vrlo simpatični, ali (ili baš zbog toga) moram da ti skrenem pažnju na ovo ili recimo ovo...
igipop igipop 00:37 11.07.2007

pisi o tome

...
Virtuelni Vasilije Virtuelni Vasilije 07:26 11.07.2007

Re: Drago,

G r o f
Srbija se mešala na jedan podmukao način. Lajala je kao krezubi pas umesto da kaže otvoreno, mi vam ne možemo pomoći. Nisu Martić i Babić (a nije ih ni krasila neka inteligencija) pogrešno procenili situaciju, već su naivno verovali u taj lavež. Ništa se nije promenilo.


Grofe kontradiktoran si, sta ti znaci to "nisu pogresno procenili situaciju, vec su naivno verlovali u taj lavez"??? Kao da su oni mala deca pa nisu mogli da vide da im Srbija ne moze pomoci protiv celog sveta? I zar nije "lajala" i sama RSK a ne samo Srbija? I sta ti znaci uopste "Srbija"? Zar u to vreme Srbija nije bila isto sto i Milosevic??? I po cemu je on bio inteligentiniji od Martica i od Babica? Pa je isto tako cinio pogresne procene ili "naivno verovao"? Ne branim ja njega a ni ovu dvojicu (kao i onu dvojicu iz BiH). Pokusavam samo da malo realnije sagledam situaciju i smeta mi pomalo kad svi pokusavaju da svale sve na jednog (koga vise nema). I to ne zbog njega (bas me birga za njega, on i jeste jedan od najkrivljih za sve) - nego zbog toga sto bi time neki drugi koji su krivi tako izbegli SVOJ DEO KRIVICE (ukljucujuci i tzv. MZ).

Kad je sve zavrseno naravno da je i malom detetu bilo jasno da su propustili sansu da se izbore za neki bolji polozaj (i ostanak) Srba u Hrvatskoj ... pa onda naravno svaljuju krivicu jedan na drugog. A krivi su svi. I to opet ne umanjuje krivicu tadasnje Hrvatske vlasti koja je ocigledno planski i namerno htela da se oslobodi svog srpskog dela stanovnistva (i to dokazala i dokazuje jos uvek time sto im nije omogucila povratak). I odgovornost MZ koje je to sve mirno gledala i podrzavala ...

G r o f
Ništa se nije promenilo. Samo su glave okrenute prema Kosovu i opet se laje. . i opet nema ko da kaže Srbima na Kosovu, ne slušajte lajanje ....


Pa ne bih bar rekao da je isto. Opet "laju" i jedni i drugi. I malom detetu je ovoga puta jasno da Srbija SAMA ne moze NISTA uciniti ... niti da ce stupiti u konfrontaciju sa svetom (a i kad bi stupila, ne bi nista postigla). Ovoga puta samo nema nikakvog izbora, niti necega sto mogu da izgube. Ili ce se sloziti ODMAH da Kosovo bude nezavisno ... i prihvatiti kao CINJENICU da se ona ogromna vecina proteranih nece nikad tamo vratiti a da ce onaj mali deo koji jos uvek tamo moci da zivi samo pod zastitom sa strane (kao u kavezu) a ako ostane bez zastite ce biti proteran ...

Evo ja kao obican moralan covek mislim da je ipak bolje ne pristati na NEPRAVDU I ZLOCIN odmah nego BAR pokusati i traziti nesto vise nadajuci se da danasnja Rusija nije isto ono sto je bila ona Jeljcinova (a NIJE). Pa ce mozda ipak izvuci nesto vise ... mozda jedan deo Kosova na kojem Albanci i tako nemaju kontrolu, ipak ostane pod srpskom upravom? Ili mozda dobiju neki veci vid samouprave? A sta mogu da izgube, kad su sve izgubili? Ali priznajem, nisam ni ja bas optimista ... Ali cak i kad bih pristao odmah, ne bih bio u stanju da, kao neki ljugavci kod nas sada, ubedjujem sebe i druge da je to nesto DOBRO (i da Albanci imaju "demokratsko" pravo na samoopredeljenje ) ... nego bih bar rekao da je ZLOCIN I NEPRAVDA ... i direktno krsenje svih onih "svetlih" principa o kojima ta ista MZ trubi godinama i za njihovo krsenje optuzuje SAMO onu stranu koja joj politicki nije bila po volji ...

G r o f
Čak i ako se izuzme moralna strana , "Srebrenica" je produkt maloumnosti i imbecilizma. Ko je još mogao biti toliko glup ,da u onakvim uslovima izaziva bes MZ nepotrebnim ubijanjem.


Pa naravno da JESTE. To je sigurno nesto NAJKRETENSKIJE sto su mogli da urade gledajuci i sa stanovista njihovih politickih ciljeva. Ali to treba imati u vidu i kad se govori o onom LICITIRANJU sa brojem zrtava. Zar mislis da je slucajno sto svi koji su zastupali te suprotne politicke ciljeve KAO PAPAGAJI navode brojku od 8000 pobijenih a uvek "zaborave" (a to rade i SADA) da kazu da su u tu brojku usli i naoruzani borci BiH? I da se i po proceni jedne NATO vlade (holandske) moze pre doci do zakljucka da je broj stvarnih CIVILNIH zrtava negde oko polovine te brojke. Slazem se ja da je umanjivanje broja zrtava nedopustivo i neka vrsta ponovnog zlocina nad njima ... ali zar to nije i uvecavanje zarad politickih ciljeva???
G r o f G r o f 16:43 11.07.2007

Re: Drago,

Vucko, linkovi mi ne rekoše ništa novo.
Zapravo...Nisam znao da je Drago bio na tako značajnom mestu, gradonačelnik "ulice koja zajebava čitavu Evropu"...bahahaha... i ministar informisanja! Bolje da se tim ne hvali. On je bio zadužen da hipnotičko lajanje čuje narod. Nije mi jasno zašto se ta kakafonija laži i huškanja, zvala informisanje.
Dugo me muči jedna misterija na koju mi, možda, odgovor može dati čovek koji je očigledno bio informisan o stanju na frontu, u to vreme.
Drago, zašto borci iz junačkog Knina nisu držali ni jedan metar fronta RSK? Otkrij tu tajnu gradonačelniče ili me demantuj.
Uh...Trolujem.
Urosh Urosh 14:27 10.07.2007

To ti je, Drago, prijatelju,

kultura nasilja u srbijanskom drustvu, jednako rasirena kao relativizacija zlocina.
Voleo kad bi u ovoj zemlji imao ko da povede Pobunu protiv oceva, ali ko da je povede?
Lencuge, koje se bore za svoje studentske guzice i za diplomirani=master ili oni koji sede po kaficima i mantraju o clubbingu u Beogradu, kojima je jedina briga hoce li sedeti negde na Obilicevom vencu ili u Strahinjica bana?:(
Srebrenica je mrlja i ljaga na licu Srbije, posebice Srba i srbijanska i srpska velika sramota i moralna i politicka odgovornost.
Oni koji je negiraju ili relativizuju imaju najvise prodje u ovom drustvu, nazalost.
Vazno je imati licnu gradjansku i ljudsku savest i da u zemlji u kojoj zivimo ne dopustimo bezumnicima i bezdusnicima da dodju na vlast, tako cemo biti casniji, jer cemo postovati zrtve.
I distancirati se od zlocinacke politike, koja je Srebrenicu i proizvela.

lilit lilit 14:43 10.07.2007

Re: To ti je, Drago, prijatelju,

Ju, ju, ju, kakva patetika. Ej bre, sta je ovo?
Pa hajde ti, ne budi lenj pa idi i povedi Pobunu protiv oca svojega!
Kako ces je izvesti, daj neku kreativnu, boga ti, nemoj ovu dosadnu i pateticnu.
pufna pufna 15:38 10.07.2007

Re: To ti je, Drago, prijatelju,

Ju, ju, ju, kakva patetika. Ej bre, sta je ovo?

lilit je pateticna samo na jasenovac. Tu njena empatija se zaustavlja. ona je nakako nacionalno obelezena
sramno, lilit
ali to i ide uz taj nick - ''Iz veze Adama i Lilit rodjeni su mnogi zli duhovi''
Drago Kovacevic Drago Kovacevic 16:06 10.07.2007

Re: To ti je, Drago, prijatelju,

Postovani prijatelji...
Morao sam obrisati i banovati tipa koji se pojavio na blogu negirajuci zlocin. Pojavio se kao a-gripa i dao linkove na negatore zlocina...
Verovatno sam brisuci njega, obrisao jos koji post pa se onome koga sam obrisao izvinjavam...mislim da je bio jedan Urosev post.
Doctor Wu Doctor Wu 16:36 10.07.2007

Re: To ti je, Drago, prijatelju,

Posto sam ja redovan citalac Ukijevih postova, je l' moze samo sadrzaj? Onako, svojim recima, ukratko.
Tekunica Tekunica 16:51 10.07.2007

Re: To ti je, Drago, prijatelju,

Doctor Wu
Posto sam ja redovan citalac Ukijevih postova, je l' moze samo sadrzaj? Onako, svojim recima, ukratko.

Izbrisao si mene...sta..kao slucajno...vrlo hrabro sto brises neistomisljenike.
hoochie coochie man hoochie coochie man 16:55 10.07.2007

Re: To ti je, Drago, prijatelju,

pa naravno da nije slucajno vec sasvim namerno i sasvim pametno
idi negde na drugi blog, docicemo svi da te zezamo, nije OVO mesto za zezanje
Drago brisi i mene
Drago Kovacevic Drago Kovacevic 16:55 10.07.2007

Re: To ti je, Drago, prijatelju,

@ doctore..
Uz svo uvazavanje ne bih da se salimo na ovoj temi..
Drago Kovacevic Drago Kovacevic 16:59 10.07.2007

Re: To ti je, Drago, prijatelju,

@tekunice
ne samo da sam te obrisao nego sam te i banovao na jedan dan...prosto, da se naucis redu..i malo ohladis.
A meni nemoj o ratu i o tome ko je preko Drine....
Ja sam u ratu bio i sa te sam strane....
lilit lilit 09:42 11.07.2007

Re: To ti je, Drago, prijatelju,

Ne, ja samo ne trpim retoriku.
A tebe stavili da me markiras ili sta? Ja sam ti toliko interesantna vidim?
A nick mi je bas divan, je l' mi zavidis?
Ja tebi na tvom bas ne, pufno.
Drago Kovacevic Drago Kovacevic 17:33 10.07.2007

S obzirom..

...da cu izvesno vreme provesti napolju i da necu biti u mogucnosti da kontrolisem ovaj blog, a da bi iskljucio mogucnosti uvreda, negiranja zlocina i drugih neprimerenih stvari kojih je vec bilo, privremeno cu do povratka, iskljuciti blog za komentarisanje.
tarantula tarantula 00:52 11.07.2007

Srebrenica i jos ponesto No.3.

Postovani gosp. Kovacevicu ,
Izuzetno cenim Vas nacin i nivo komunikacije sa posetiocima Vaseg bloga sto je moram priznati retkost na ovom VIP blogu. Sto se tice teme Srebrenice - zlocin i crna mrlja na srbskom obrazu molim vas da procitate izvestaj koji je objavila gosp. Diane Johnston -- Srebrenica Revisited a koji temu Srebrenice prikazuje iz ugla nekog ko nije sa ovih nasih prostora i ima uvid u mnogo siru sliku oko dogadjaja pre , za vreme i posle Srebrenice. Pitanja koja ovaj tekst otvara su vrlo vrlo provokativna a literatura i dokumenti koji su korisceni su od vrlo respektibilnih ljudi i autora. U sustini , ovaj izvestaj govori o stvaranju tehnologije zlocina sa namenom demonizacije jedne strane u sukobu i sa jasnim politickim , vojnim i strateskim ciljem - politickim i vojnim porazom sa dugotrajnim politickim reperkusijama po porazenu stranu. Znaci - ne samo vojni poraz ( ili ne uopste vojni poraz ) vec obuhvat mnogo sirih zona delovanja ( marketing , politika , ekonomija , javno mnenje , ..) i u krajnjoj konsekvenci rezultat koji je nepovoljan po jednu stranu u mnogo duzem vremenskom periodu i na multilateralnom planu . Moram da priznam da me ovaj tekst naterao da se dobro zamislim koliko u stvari mi zapravo znamo i koja je od istina zapravo stvarno ISTINA.
Ovo ne znaci da imam ikakvih simpatija ili opravdanja za zlocine na bilo kojoj strani pa makar i u ratu ali rezultai su jasni i vidljivi - Srbi su minorna manjina u RH , Srbi su nestali iz Sarajeva , Srbi su nestali i iz Pristine.
Takodje , ako neko nudi 5.000 Srebrenicana u zalog vojne interrvencije NATO ko je tu zlocinac ? Ako neko sprema teren ( godinama )za optuzivanje politicke elite jedne strane ( ma koja i ma kakva ona bila ) za delo genocida jasno dajuci do znanja da ta optuzba znaci "pranje" svega pocinjenog od druge strane i " pomagaca " kako ne posumnjati da je to zapravo dokaz upravo tog stvaranja zlocina sa ciljem poraza jedne strane ? Tehnologija zla ? Stvaranje zlocina? Kakvi monstruozni termini . ..
Ukratko , molim Vas da procitate ovaj izvestaj koji cu postaviti ovde i razmislite o jos necijim crnim mrljama na obrazu .
Hvala Vam na vremenu i prostoru na Vasem blogu .

Srebrenica Revisited
By DIANA JOHNSTONE
Last summer, almost the entire political spectrum in the Western world joined in a chorus of self-flagellation on the 10th anniversary of the Srebrenica massacre. The dominant theme was "nostra culpa": "we" let it happen, "we" didn't want to know about it, and "we" mustn't let it happen again.
Dear reader, who are "we" in this case? How in the world could "we" (you and I) have known or done anything about this at the time? And in fact, how much do "we" really know about it now? We know what we read in the newspapers or see on television. But how precise and accurate is that information? How do we know now that we are much better informed than we were before the event?
Such questions are virtually taboo. Srebrenica has become a sacred symbol of collective guilt, and to raise the slightest question is to be instantly condemned as an apologist for frightful crimes , or as a "holocaust denier".
A left that retains any capacity for critical thinking should regard the lavish public breast-beating over "Srebrenica" (the quotation marks indicate the symbol rather than the actual event) with a certain skepticism. If mainstream media commentators and politicians are so extraordinarily moved by "Srebrenica", this is because it has become an incantation to justify whatever future foreign war the U.S. government and media decide to sell under the label of "humanitarian intervention".
The Uses of a Massacre
Aside from the probable future use of "Srebrenica", there is the way it has already been used. Indeed, it was perhaps being used even before it happened.
From the the U.N. Secretary General's 1999 Report on Srebrenica, it emerges that the idea of a "Srebrenica massacre" was already in the air at a September 1993 meeting in Sarajevo between Bosnian Muslim president Alija Izetbegovic and members of his Muslim party from Srebrenica. On the agenda was a Serb proposal to exchange Srebrenica and Zepa for some territories around Sarajevo as part of a peace settlement.
"The delegation opposed the idea, and the subject was not discussed further. Some surviving members of the Srebrenica delegation have stated that President Izetbegovic also told them he had learned that a NATO intervention in Bosnia and Herzegovina was possible, but could only occur if the Serbs were to break into Srebrenica, killing at least 5,000 of its people." (1)
Izetbegovic later denied this, but he is outnumbered by witnesses. It is clear that Izetbegovic's constant strategy was to portray his Muslim side in the bloody civil war as pure helpless victims, in order to bring U.S. military power in on his side. On his death bed, he readily admitted as much to his ardent admirer Bernard Kouchner, in the presence of U.S. diplomat Richard Holbrooke. Kouchner reminded Izetbegovic of a conversation he had had with French President Mitterrand in which he "spoke of the existence of 'extermination camps' in Bosnia."
You repeated that in front of the journalists. That provoked considerable emotion throughout the world. [...] They were horrible places, but people were not systematically exterminated. Did you know that?
Yes. I thought that my revelations could precipitate bombings. I saw the reaction of the French and the others-I was mistaken. [...] Yes, I tried, but the assertion was false. There were no extermination camps whatever the horror of those places. (2)
Like the Bosnian Serbs, the Muslims also herded their adversaries into "horrible" camps at the start of the civil war, on the way to expulsion. Unlike the Bosnian Serbs, the Bosnian Muslims enjoyed the services of high-powered U.S. public relations experts in the Washington-based Ruder Finn agency who knew how to "spin" the Bosnian conflict in order to equate the Serbs with the Nazis-the quickest and easiest way to win public opinion over to the Muslim side. The news media and political figures were showered with press releases and other materials exaggerating Serb atrocities, whereas Muslim atrocities (such as the decapitations of Serb prisoners, fully documented) remained confidential. To the public, this was a one-sided conflict between a Serbian "fascist aggressor" and innocent victims, all unarmed civilians.
The general public did not know that Srebrenica, described as a "safe area", was not in fact simply a haven for refugees, but also a Muslim military base. The general public did not know what Lord Owen knew and recounted in his important 1995 book, Balkan Odyssey (p.143), namely that in April 1993, Serbian president Slobodan Milosevic was extremely anxious to prevent Bosnian Serb forces from overrunning Srebrenica. "On 16 April I spoke on the telephone to President Milosevic about my anxiety that, despite repeated assurances from Dr. Karadzic that he had no intention of taking Srebrenica, the Bosnian Serb army was now proceeding to do just that. The pocket was greatly reduced in size. I had rarely heard Milosevic so exasperated, but also so worried: he feared that if the Bosnian Serb troops entered Srebrenica there would be a bloodbath because of the tremendous bad blood that existed between the two armies. The Bosnian Serbs held the young Muslim commander in Srebrenica, Naser Oric, responsible for a massacre near Bratunac in December 1992 in which many Serb civilians had been killed. Milosevic believed it would be a great mistake for the Bosnian Serbs to take Srebrenica and promised to tell Karadzic so."
Thus, many months before the July 1995 "Srebrenica massacre", both Izetbegovic and Milosevic were aware of the possibility and of its potential impact-favorable to the Muslim cause, and disastrous for the Serbs.
A few other indisputable facts should not be overlooked:
Shortly before the Bosnian Serb attack on Srebrenica, the Muslim troops stationed in that enclave carried out murderous attacks on nearby Serb villages. These attacks were certain to incite Serb commanders to retaliate against the Srebrenica garrison.
Meanwhile, the Muslim high command in Sarajevo ordered the Srebrenica commanders, Oric and his lieutenants, to withdraw from Srebrenica, leaving thousands of his soldiers without commanders, without orders, and in total confusion when the foreseeable Serb attack occurred. Surviving Srebrenica Muslim officials have bitterly accused the Izetbegovic government of deliberately sacrificing them to the interests of his State.
According to the most thorough study of Srebrenica events, by Cees Wiebes for the Netherlands Institute for War Documentation report, the Bosnian Serb forces set out in July 1995 to reduce the area held by Bosnian Muslim forces on the outskirts of Srebrenica, and only decided to capture the town itself when they unexpectedly found it undefended.
"The VRS [Republika Srpska Army] advance went so well that the evening of July 9 saw an important 'turning point' [...] The Bosnian Serbs decided that they would no longer confine themselves to the southern part of the enclave, but would extend the operation and take the town of Srebrenica itself. Karadzic was informed that the results achieved now put the Drina Corps in a position to take the town; he had expressed his satisfaction with this and had agreed to a continuation of the operation to disarm the 'Muslim terrorist gangs' and to achieve a full demilitarization of the enclave. In this order, issued by Major General Zdravko Tolimir, it was also stated that Karadzic had determined that the safety of UNPROFOR soldiers and of the population should be ensured. Orders to this effect were to be provided to all participating units. [...] The orders made no mention of a forced relocation of the population. [...] A final instruction, also of significance, was that the population and prisoners of war should be treated in accordance with the Geneva Convention. On July 11 all of Srebrenica fell into the hands of the Bosnian Serbs."
In testimony to a French parliamentary commission inquiry into Srebrenica, General Philippe Morillon, the UNPROFOR officer who first called international attention to the Srebrenica enclave, stated his belief that Bosnian Serb forces had fallen into a "trap" when they decided to capture Srebrenica.
Subsequently, on February 12, 2004, testifying at the International Criminal Tribunal in The Hague, General Morillon stressed that the Muslim commander in Srebrenica, Naser Oric, "engaged in attacks during Orthodox holidays and destroyed villages, massacring all the inhabitants. This created a degree of hatred that was quite extraordinary in the region, and this prompted the region of Bratunac in particular---that is the entire Serb population---to rebel against the very idea that through humanitarian aid one might help the population that was present there."
Asked by the ICTY prosecutor how Oric treated his Serb prisoners, General Morillon, who knew him well, replied that "Naser Oric was a warlord who reigned by terror in his area and over the population itself. I think that he realized that these were the rules of this horrific war, that he could not allow himself to take prisoners. According to my recollection, he didn't even look for an excuse. It was simply a statement: One can't be bothered with prisoners."
Morillon recounted how "the Serbs took me to a village to show me the evacuation of the bodies of the inhabitants that had been thrown into a hole, a village close to Bratunac. And this made me understand the degree to which this infernal situation of blood and vengeance [...] led to a situation when I personally feared that the worst would happen if the Serbs of Bosnia managed to enter the enclaves and Srebrenica."
"I feared that the Serbs, the local Serbs, the Serbs of Bratunac, these militiamen, they wanted to take their revenge for everything that they attributed to Naser Oric. It wasn't just Naser Oric that they wanted to revenge, take their revenge on, they wanted to revenge their dead on Orthodox Christmas."

* * *
In short, Srebrenica, whose Serb population had been chased out by Muslim troops at the start of the civil war in 1992, was both a gathering point for civilian Muslim refugees and a Muslim army base. The enclave lived from international humanitarian aid. The Muslim military did not allow civilians to leave, since their presence was what ensured the arrival of humanitarian aid provisions which the military controlled.
When the Bosnian Serb forces captured the town on July 11, 2005, civilians were clamoring to leave the enclave, understandably enough, since there was virtually no normal economic life there. Much has been made of the fact that Serb forces separated the population, providing buses for women, children and the infirm to take them to Tuzla, while detaining the men. In light of all that preceded, the reason for this separation is obvious: the Bosnian Serbs were looking for the perpetrators of raids on Serb villages, in order to take revenge.
However, only a relatively small number of Muslim men were detained at that point, and some of them are known to have survived and eventually been released in exchange for Serb prisoners. When the Serb forces entered the town from the south, thousands of Muslim soldiers, in disarray because of the absence of commanding officers, fled northwards, through wild wooded hills toward Tuzla. It is clear enough that they fled because they feared exactly what everyone aware of the situation dreaded: that Serb soldiers would take vengeance on the men they considered guilty of murdering Serb civilians and prisoners.
Thousands of those men did in fact reach Tuzla, and were quietly redeployed. This was confirmed by international observers. However, Muslim authorities never provided information about these men, preferring to let them be counted among the missing, that is, among the massacred. Another large, unspecified number of these men were ambushed and killed as they fled in scenes of terrible panic. This was, then, a "massacre", such as occurs in war when fleeing troops are ambushed by superior forces.

Counting the victims
So we come to the question of numbers. The question is difficult, both because of the uncertainty that surrounds it, and because merely pointing to this uncertainty is instantly denounced as "revisionism" and lack of respect for the victims. This reproach is not logical. Victims are victims, whether few or many, and respect is not in proportion to their numbers.
The question of numbers is complex and has been dealt with in detail by others, recently by an independent international Srebrenica research group which will soon publish its findings in book form. (3)
Suffice it here to note the following:
1. The sacralization of the estimated number of victims. In many if not most disasters, initial estimates of casualties tend to be inflated, for various reasons, such as multiple reports of the same missing person, and are subsequently corrected downwards. This was the case for the World Trade Center disaster, where initial estimates of up to 10,000 victims were finally brought down to less than 3000, and there are many other examples. In the case of Srebrenica, the figure of 8,000 originated with September 1995 announcements by the International Committee of the Red Cross that it was seeking information about some 3,000 men reportedly detained as well as about some 5,000 who had fled to central Bosnia. Neither the Bosnian Serbs nor the Muslims were ever forthcoming with whatever information they had, and the "8,000" figure has tended ever since to be repeated as an established total of "Muslim men and boys executed by Serb forces". It can be noted that this was always an estimate, the sum of two separate groups, the smaller one of prisoners (whose execution would be a clear war crime) and the larger one of retreating troops (whose "massacre" as they fled would be the usual tragic consequence of bitter civil war). Anyone familiar with the workings of journalism knows that there is a sort of professional inertia which leads reporters to repeat whatever figure they find in previous reports, without verification, and with a marked preference for big numbers. This inertia is all the greater when no truly authoritative figures ever emerge.
The number of bodies exhumed.
Despite unprecedented efforts over the past ten years to recover bodies from the area around Srebrenica, less than 3,000 have been exhumed, and these include soldiers and others-Serb as well as Muslim-who died in the vicious combats that took place during three years of war. Only a fraction have been identified.
2. The political desire for the largest possible number. Aside from the journalistic inertia mentioned above, the retention of the unproven high figure of massacre victims in the case of Srebrenica is clearly the result of political will on the part of two governments: the Bosnian Muslim government of Alija Izetbegovic and, more importantly, the government of the United States. From the moment that Madeleine Albright brandished satellite photos of what she claimed was evidence of Serb massacres committed at Srebrenica (evidence that was both secret, as the photos were shown in closed session to the Security Council, and circumstantial, as they showed changes in terrain which might indicate massacres, not the alleged massacres themselves), the U.S. used "Srebrenica" for two clear purposes:
to draw attention away from the U.S.-backed Croatian offensive which drove the Serb population out of the Krajina which, as much as Srebrenica, was supposed to be protected by the United Nations;
to implicate Bosnian Serb leaders in "genocide" in order to disqualify them from negotiating the future of Bosnia-Herzegovina. (The U.S. preferred to replace them at Dayton by Milosevic, whose eagerness to end the war could be exploited to get concessions the Bosnian Serbs might refuse.)
Exploitation of "Srebrenica" then helped set the stage for the Kosovo war of 1999:
by blaming the United Nations (whose failure to defend Srebrenica was in reality the inevitable result of the unwillingness of the United States to give full support to U.N. ground forces), NATO emerged as the only agent capable of effective "humanitarian intervention".
by falsely identifying Milosevic with the Bosnian Serb leadership and by exploiting the notion that Srebrenica killings were part of a vast Serb plan of "genocide" carried out against non-Serbs for purely racist reasons, Madeleine Albright was able to advocate the NATO war against Yugoslavia as necessary to prevent "another Srebrenica" in Kosovo, where the situation was altogether different.
To use "Srebrenica" as an effective instrument in the restructuring of former Yugoslavia, notably by replacing recalcitrant Serb leaders by more pliable politicians, the crime needed to be as big as possible: not a mere war crime (such as the United States itself commits on a serial basis, from Vietnam to Panama to Iraq), but "genocide": "the worst atrocity in Europe since the Holocaust". That arouses the Hitler image, which is always good for the image of the United States as saviour from across the seas, and implies a plan decided at the highest levels, rather than the brutal behavior of enraged soldiers (or paramilitaries, the probable culprits in this case) out of control.
But what plan for genocide includes offering safe passage to women and children? And if this was all part of a Serb plot to eliminate Muslims, what about all the Muslims living peacefully in Serbia itself, including thousands of refugees who fled there from Bosnia? Or the Muslims in the neighboring enclave of Zepa, who were unharmed when the Serbs captured that town a few days after capturing Srebrenica? To get around these common sense obstacles, the ICTY prosecution came up with a sociologist who provided an "expert" opinion: the Srebrenica Muslims lived in a patriarchal society, therefore killing the men was enough to ensure that there would be no more Muslims in Srebrenica. This amounts to shrinking the concept of "genocide" to fit the circumstances.
It was on basis of this definition that in August 2001 the Tribunal found Bosnian Serb General Radislav Krstic guilty of "complicity in genocide". Although he neither ordered, participated in or was even aware of any executions, the judges ruled that he took part in what the ICTY calls a "joint criminal enterprise" simply by capturing Srebrenica, since he must have been aware that genocide was "a natural and foreseeable consequence". This is the ruling that established "genocide" as the official description of events at Srebrenica.
Why such relentless determination to establish Srebrenica as "genocide"? A December 27, 2003, Associated Press dispatch provided an explanation by U.S. jurist Michael Scharf, one of the designers of the ICTY who has also coached the judges for the trial of Saddam Hussein: On a practical level, if the court determines Srebrenica does not fit the legal definition of genocide, it would be very difficult to make the charge stick against Milosevic, said Michael Scharf, a professor at Case Western Reserve University School of Law.
"And it is crucial that he be convicted of genocide," Scharf said. If Milosevic can't be convicted, "then who can you convict of genocide in the modern age?" he asked.
The legal definition of genocide could also come into play in an Iraqi war-crimes tribunal, which has vowed to follow international legal precedent.
It is striking that from the very start, the effort of the United States and of the Tribunal in The Hague-which it mainly finances, staffs and controls-has been to establish what it calls "command responsibility" for Serb crimes rather than individual guilt of actual perpetrators. The aim is not to identify and punish men who violated the Geneva conventions by executing prisoners, but rather to pin the supreme crime on the top Serb leadership.
The office of the ICTY prosecutor has chosen to rely heavily on a single confessed participant in the Srebrenica massacre. This person is one Drazen Erdemovic, a petty criminal of Croatian nationality who was hospitalized in Serbia in March 1996 after a near-fatal brawl in a bar in Novi Sad. Quite possibly in order to escape further threats from his personal enemies, Erdemovic confessed to Western news media to having taken part in mass murder in Bosnia. He was arrested by Serb authorites who then, at his request, turned him over to the Hague Tribunal.
From then on, the prosecution has used Erdemovic repeatedly as its star witness, using the U.S. procedure of "plea bargaining" by which a confessed criminal gets off lightly by incriminating somebody else the prosecution wants to convict. He has told his story to the judges at his own brief trial, where he was exempted from cross examination thanks to his guilty plea, as well as at a hearing incriminating Karadzic and Mladic (in the absence of any legal defense) and at various trials whenever "Srebrenica" comes up.
His story goes like this: after briefly serving in the Bosnian Muslim army, Erdemovic joined an international mercenary militia unit that seems to have been employed by the Bosnian Serb command for sabotage operations on enemy territory. On July 16, 1995, his unit of eight men executed between 1,000 and 1,200 Muslim men near the village of Pilice, some 40 kilometers north of Srebrenica. From around 10:30 in the morning to 3 o'clock in the afternoon, these eight mercenaries emptied bus load after bus load of prisoners and lined them up to be shot by groups of ten.
Now in fact, it seems that a serious crime was indeed committed in Pilice. Subsequent forensic investigators exhumed 153 bodies. One hundred and fifty-three executions of prisoners of war is a serious crime, and there is material evidence that this crime was committed. But 1,200? According to the manner of execution described by Erdemovic, it would have taken 20 hours to murder so many victims. Yet the judges have never questioned this elementary arithmetical discrepancy, and Erdemovic's word has consistently been accepted as gospel truth by the International Criminal Tribunal in The Hague. (4)
Why this insistence on an implausibly higher number than can be supported by material evidence? Obviously, the Tribunal wants to keep the figures as high as possible in order to sustain the charge of "genocide". The charge of "genocide" is what sharply distinguishes the indictment of Serbs from indictments of Croats or Muslims for similar crimes committed during the Yugoslav disintegration wars.
In August 2000 after not quite four and a half years in jail, the self-confessed mass murderer Erdemovic was freed, given a new identity, residence in an unspecified Western country and a "job", so to speak, as occasional paid and "protected" witness for the ICTY.
In contrast, General Krstic was sentenced to 35 years in prison and will be eligible for parole in 20 years.
Clearly, the purpose of the "genocide" charge is not to punish the perpetrators but to incriminate the Bosnian Serb, and the Yugoslav Serb, chain of command right up to the top.
Srebrenica As Myth
The transformation of Srebrenica into myth was illustrated last July by an article in the Italian leftist daily Liberazione (close to the "Communist Refoundation" party) reporting on a semi-documentary film entitled "Srebrenica, luci dall'oblio" ("Srebrenica, lights from oblivion". The title suggests that the film-makers have rescued from oblivion a tragically neglected event, when in fact, rarely in the history of warfare has a massacre been the focus of so much attention.
Here we have the usual self-flagellation: "...what happened in Srebrenica: the massacre of 9,000 civilians, in the most total silence/absence on the part of the world institutions [responsible for] peace..." The author accepts without question the term "genocide" and raises the figure of victims to new heights. "Around 9,000 men between the ages of 14 and 70 were transported by truck to nearby centers where they were massacred and buried in mass graves..." This was "the greatest mass genocide committed since the days of Nazism until today"... What is the point of this exaggeration, this dramatization? Why is Srebrenica so much more terrible than the war that ravaged Vietnam, with countless massacres and devastation of the countryside by deadly chemicals, or the cold-blooded massacre of surrendering Iraqis at the end of the first Gulf War in 1991? But that is a genuinely forgotten massacre-not only forgotten, but never even recognized in the first place, and the "international community" has not sent teams of forensic scientists to find and identify the victims of U.S. weapons.
In all probability the film-makers, aspiring artists and "genocide experts" who consider "Srebrenica" suitable material for touching the emotions of the public believe that they are serving the interests of peace and humanity. But I would suggest quite the contrary. The misrepresentation of "Bosnia" as scene of a deliberate "genocide" against Muslims, rather than a civil war with atrocities on all sides, contributes to a spirit of "conflict of civilizations". It has helped recruit volunteers for Islamic terrorist groups.
The political exploitation of Srebrenica has turned the Bosnian war into a morality pantomimew between pure good and pure evil, a version of events which the Serbs can never really accept and the Muslims have no desire to give up. This stands in the way of unbiased investigation and serious historical analysis. Reconciliation is in fact ruled out by the moralistic insistence that a stark distinction must be made between "aggressor" and "victim". This stark difference exists between NATO and Yugoslavia, or between the U.S. and Iraq, where an overwhelmingly superior military power deliberately launched an aggressive war against a sovereign country that neither attacked nor threatened it.
But the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina was not of that nature. The war there was the result of an extraordinarily complex legal situation (an unsettled small Federal Republic constitutionally composed of three "nationalities": Serb, Muslim and Croat, itself part of a disintegrating larger Federal Republic) exacerbated by myriad local power plays and the incoherent intervention of Great Powers. Moreover, this occurred in a region where memories of extremely bloody civil war during World War II were still very much alive. To a large extent, the fighting that broke loose in 1992 was a resumption of the vicious cycle of massacres and vengeance that devastated Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1941-44, when the Nazi occupation broke up Yugoslavia and attached Bosnia-Herzegovina to Greater Croatia, which proceeded to eliminate Serbs.
Today it is an unquestioned dogma that recalling atrocies is a "duty of memory" to the victims, something that must be endlessly repeated, lest we forget. But is this really so obvious? The insistence on past atrocities may simply prepare the next wave, which is what has already happened in the Balkans, and more than once. Because in reality, the dead victims cannot profit from such memories. But the memory of victimhood is a moral and political capital of great value for the heirs of victimhood and especially for their self-appointed champions. And in the case of Bosnia, it promises to bring considerable financial gain. If Milosevic, as former president of Serbia, can be convicted of genocide, then the Bosnian Muslims hope to win billions of dollars in reparations that will keep Serbia on its knees for the foreseeable future.

* * *
The obsessive reference to "Srebrenica" has a negative effect far beyond the Balkans.
The "Srebrenica massacre" is part of a dominant culture discourse that goes like this: We people in the advanced democracies have reached a new moral plateau, from which we are both able and have a duty both to judge others and to impose our "values" when necessary. The others, on a lower moral plateau, must be watched carefully, because unlike us, they may commit "genocide". It is remarkable how "genocide" has become fashionable, with more and more "genocide experts" in universities, as if studying genocide made sense as a separate academic discipline. What would all these people do without genocide? I wonder what is behind the contemporary fascination with genocide and serial killers, and I doubt that it is a sign of a healthy social psychology.
In the world today, few people, including Bosnian Muslims, are threatened by "genocide" in the sense of a deliberate Hitler-style project to exterminate a population-which is how most people understand the term. But millions of people are threatened, not by genocidal maniacs, but by genocidal conditions of life: poverty, disease, inadequate water, global climate change. The Srebrenica mourning cult offers nothing positive in regard to these genocidal conditions. Worse, it is instrumentalized openly to justify what is perhaps the worst of all the genocidal conditions: war.
The subliminal message in the official Srebrenica discourse is that because "we" let that happen, "we" mustn't let "it" happen again, ergo, the United States should preventively bomb potential perpetrators of "genocide". Whatever happened in Srebrenica could have best been prevented, not by U.S. or NATO bombing, but by preventing civil war from breaking out in Bosnia Herzegovina to begin with. This prevention was possible if the "international community", meaning the NATO powers, Europe and the United States, had firmly insisted that the Yugoslav crisis of 1990 should be settled by negotiations. But first of all, Germany opposed this, by bullying the European Union into immediate recognition of the secession of Slovenia and Croatia from Yugoslavia, without negotiation. All informed persons knew that this threatened the existence of Bosnia Herzegovina. The European Union proposed a cantonization plan for Bosnia Herzegovina, not very different from the present arrangement, which was accepted by leaders of the Bosnian Muslim, Serb and Croat communities. But shortly thereafter, Muslim president Alija Izetbegovic reneged, after the U.S. ambassador encouraged him to hold out for more. Throughout the subsequent fighting, the U.S. put obstacles in the way of every European peace plan. [6] These years of obstruction enabled the United States to take control of the eventual peace settlement in Dayton, in November 1995.
This rejection of compromise, which plunged Bosnia-Herzegovina into fratricidal war, was supported at the time by a chorus of humanitarians- not least politicians safely ensconced in the European Parliament who voted for "urgent resolutions" about situations of which they were totally ignorant-claiming that Bosnia must be a centralized State for the sake of "multiculturalism". These were the same humanitarians who applauded the breakup of multicultural Yugoslavia-which in fact created the crisis in Bosnia.
Clearly, whoever executes unarmed prisoners commits a very serious crime whether in Bosnia or anywhere else. But when all is said and done, it is an illusion to think that condemning perpetrators of a massacre in Bosnia will ensure that the next civil war somewhere in the world will be carried out in a more chivalrous manner. War is a life and death matter, and inevitably leads people to commit acts they would never commit in peacetime.
The notion that war can be made "clean", played according to rules, should not be the main focus of international law or of peace movements. War first of all needs to be prevented, not policed.
The false interpretation of "Srebrenica" as part of an ongoing Serb project of "genocide" was used to incite the NATO war against Yugoslavia, which devastated a country and left behind a cauldron of hatred and ethnic cleansing in Kosovo. The United States is currently engaged in a far more murderous and destructive war in Iraq. In this context, the Western lamentations that inflate the Srebrenic massacre into "the greatest mass genocide since Nazi times" are a diversion from the real existing genocide, which is not the work of some racist maniac, but the ongoing imposition of a radically unjust socio-economic world order euphemistically called "globalization".
Diana Johnstone is the author of Fools' Crusade: Yugoslavia, Nato, and Western Delusions published by Monthly Review Press. She can be reached at: dianajohnstone@compuserve.com

NOTES
1. Report of the Secretary-General Pursuant to General Assembly Resolution 53/35 (1998), Section IV, paragraph C.115.
2. Bernard Kouchner, "Les Guerriers de la Paix", Grasset, Paris, 2004, pp. 372-375.
3. "Srebrenica: The Politics of War Crimes", by George Bogdanich, Tim Fenton, Philip Hammond, Edward S. Herman, Michael Mandel, Jonathan Rooper and George Szamuely. See http://www.srebrenica-report.com/politics.htm.
4. Germinal Civikov, "Kalaschnikow und Einzelfeuer: Der Fall Drazen Erdemovic", Freitag, 16 September 2005.
5. Davide Turrini "Il genocidio jugoslavo rivive sullo schermo", Liberazione, 12 July 2005.
6. See David Owen, Balkan Odyssey, Victor Gollancz, London, 1995. Lord Owen, who, as co-chairman of the steering committee of the International Conference on the Former Yugoslavia, attempted from August 1992 to June 1995 to negotiate a peace settlement in Bosnia-Herzegovina, concludes (Indigo paperback, p.400): "From the spring of 1993 to the summer of 1995, in my judgement, the effect of US policy, despite its being called 'containment', was to prolong the war of the Bosnian Serbs in Bosnia-Herzegovina."
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