SVET: velika retorta koja se dimi

i sve prebrzo dobija podrsku mainstream medija.

Gde vidiš "ogoljene centre moći" u Brazilu i naročito Turskoj? Kažem naročito jer po svemu što sam o tome saznao upravo turska Vlada radi da suzbijanju podzemnih sila a upravlja u najvećoj meri u skladu sa demokratskim principima?

Slazem se sa tezom da su ideologije u samrtnom hropcu. Nije ideologija liberalni kapitalizam. To je pre prirodni nacin trgovine, ja tebi ovo,ti meni ono,a za toliko i toliko para. Ideologija je nadgradnja, pokusaj da se osmisli sistem koji upravo NIJE prirodan. Ideologija je pritom neophodna da bi ljudi bili ljudi.

Nisam neki stručnjak za pomenute države, što mi ni malo ne smeta da filozofiram :)

Ja mislim, mada priznajem da mi je objašnjenje tanko...

blue92

i dobro je

stari koncepti Svega se odbacuju i potpuno nova svest je taj dim o kojem ti..

Turska, Brazil, ili pak Island koji je elegantno presložio Strukturne Cigle, to je ta promena, koja će, nadam se, dojezditi do svih, do nas.. i hoće, kad tad, ali uskoro u svakom slučaju..

Ti ljudi na ulicama Turske, Brazila (Islanda) - oni su TAJ Novi zamah, koji će stare, nepotrebne, pogrešne ideje oduvati. Ali ne da bi ih zamenili nekom isto tako pogrešnom, ponudjenom/nametnutom Idejom, ne da bi prihvatili nekakav Datum Pijanog Semafordžije, već da bi shvatili da već imaju Sve i da mogu Sve

anyway, dobro je To, jako dobro.. kao budjenje iz Ružnog Sna

blue92

"zemlja glupana"

Ne bih da raspršavam iluziju

freehand
...da li je društvo globalno, sa potrošenim ekonomskim i političkim sistemom i parolama, spremno za veliki novi redizajn?
Može li do njega doći - a empirija i istorija nam ne daju mnogo povoda za optimizam - evolutivnim putem i malim koracima, bez temeljnog rušenja starog?

A evo nam još jednog diskutanta koji se slaže:

:) Bojan Budimac

Njima nije jasno ni šta se sa njihovom zemljom desilo, a sada će razumeti nešto o zemlji o kojoj ništa ne znaju!"

cult

Kad kao reakciju "objektivnog" posmatrača turskih dešavanja i pretendenta da "objasni situaciju" na napad policije na demonstrante pročitaš "Finally!" i "Good timing", onda njegovu objektivnost uzimaš jednaku cnn-ovoj ili zajedničkoj ekonomist/gardijanovoj. Sorry.

KRALJMAJMUNA

** Uzgred, ne sećam se da je demokrata Obama primao i gubio vreme sa delegacijama iz Zuccotti parka.

Trgovao je, skoro ekskluzivno, Sadamovom naftom do 2003. a posle se cenjkao sa Amerikancima oko para za koje će prodati vazdušni prostor za invaziju Iraka (Ameri ga otkačili).

Slušaj Kalte, ja se, u ovom slučaju, ne foliram da nemam stranu i ona svakako nije sa onima koji bi prevratom u inače funkcionalnoj izbornoj demokratiji da silom preuzmu vlast.

princi

Trgovao je, skoro ekskluzivno, Sadamovom naftom do 2003. a posle se cenjkao sa Amerikancima oko para za koje će prodati vazdušni prostor za invaziju Iraka (Ameri ga otkačili).

Da me zanima tvoje mišljenje pitao bih te šta je islamizam, ali, avaj, ne zanima me recikliranje nečega što si negde pročitao.

Bojan Budimac

...

Nikako mi nije jasno zašto ljudima koji prigovore tvojim argumentima stalno odgovaraš ličnim vređanjem, pa čak i banovanjima (kao kad si onomad uhvaćen u lupetanju oko cena koštanja gradnji mosta u Iraku, znam da su se i drugi ljudi žalili na sličan tretman).

princi

bladerunner92

Chomsky support

Ako zapad (citaj CIA USA ko god) rusi Erdogana zasto bi Chomsky stao uz taj pokret? samo me zanima ko stoji iza toga i da li je moguce da je spontano ali ovde se silno vreme potrosi na rasprave umesto na objasnjenja ...

freehand

Smesno,bar u pitanjima zbivanja u Turskoj.

Ne ulazeći u vrednovanje sadržaja komentara - mislim da je još smešnije ovo obraćanje sa bureta

To ste

.Ako ste

a da pritom niste

Kako se svi trudite

da se oslobodite

i poslusate

Ok, razumem da si strašno usamljen na tom svom tronu, što je baš tužno.

bladerunner92

ok hvala
ja nisam zaslepljena (avetima)ali priznajem da tako razmisljam (skoro sam dosla do clanka u NYT Why Rational People Buy Into Conspiracy Theories).Ne mislim da je islam zlo sve sa njima mi se vise cini kao reakcija a zapitkujem Budimca zato sto ne znam i razmisljam kako razmisljam pa bi volela da mi neko ko zna objasni ---that's it!

i kako izgleda turski pandur?ja bih samo da se uverim...

i kako izgleda turski pandur?

koliko su to ozbiljne pare

cult

i kako izgleda turski pandur?ja bih samo da se uverim...

ovako?

Bešiktaš ... Dolmabahče palate

niccolo

Beše Bešiktašov stadion preko puta Dolmabahčea?

Bojan Budimac

Hvala ti na strpljenju i obilju informacija, sve sam iščitala.

bladerunner92

evo za Budimca i sve ostale koga ne mrzi da cita nasla sam, slucajno skroz jer sam trazila nesto staro ali sa strane izadju i trenutne vesti pa je izasla i ova)dobar clanak gde je sve objasnjeno (sa sve reklamom date a russian beauty ) i hvala na trudu da nam se objasne stvari...

blogovatelj

Hvala ti na strpljenju i obilju informacija, sve sam iščitala.

Meni dva dana ne izlazi iz glave da je ovo blog o brazilskim neredima
Šala mala. Dobar je blog, sviđa mi se od samog starta.
Jebi ga, tursku podsves' imamo, pa smo spinovali razgovor na ono što znamo, tj što mislimo da znamo.
A ja nauči' iz bloga tj. iz linkova koji sa njega vode da je i čelik turska reč.

blogovatelj

Hvala ti na strpljenju i obilju informacija, sve sam iščitala.

Meni dva dana ne izlazi iz glave da je ovo blog o brazilskim neredima
Šala mala. Dobar je blog, sviđa mi se od samog starta.
Jebi ga, tursku podsves' imamo, pa smo spinovali razgovor na ono što znamo, tj što mislimo da znamo.
A ja nauči' iz bloga tj. iz linkova koji sa njega vode da je i čelik turska reč.

freehand

Treba to lepo spakovati na Brodove pa pravac u Izrael da lome izraelske komandose(mozda ih ovaj put isti puste).

Misliš na one fine i mirne komandose što se sa glisera i ratnih helikoptera naoružani do zuba u međunarodnim vodama piratski spuste na civilni brod i pobiju gomilu divljih i nasilnih civila na tom brodu, koji protiv svih gusarskih zakona i pravila krenu zubima, noktima i palicama da brane brod?

I btw - sa čime sad ta podmetačina ovde ima veze?

Mislim na divlje i nasilne komandose koji se do zuba naoruzani sa paint ball guns spustaju niz konopce dok ih mirni i fini civili ljubazno docekuju sa u pozdrav podignutim (metalnim?) stanglama.

At 4.32 a.m., Israeli forces launched the attack without prior warning when several speedboats drew alongside the Mavi Marmara and IDF personnel commenced an attempt to board the vessel. The speedboats were shortly followed by combat helicopters. IDF personnel began firing on the Mavi Marmara from both the speedboats and helicopters before boarding had commenced. This included the use of live fire (including automatic and semi-automatic weapon fire) as well as stun and smoke grenades, paintball guns and rubber bullets. Two passengers were killed by shots from the helicopters before the first soldiers had boarded the vessel. The Captain immediately changed the vessel’s course to the open sea on a bearing
of 270º, but Israeli naval frigates approached the vessel from the starboard bow and forced the convoy to turn back towards Israeli waters. Passengers on board the Mavi Marmara panicked and acted in self-defence to prevent the IDF personnel from boarding the vessel. Passengers threw plastic bottles, waste bins and chairs at IDF personnel attempting to board from the speedboats, and physically overpowered the first three soldiers to rappel onto the vessel from the helicopters but no guns or other weapons were used.

The Turkish Commission concludes that IDF personnel used excessive force both before and after boarding. There was indiscriminate shooting, including from the helicopters. There were also targeted attacks on individuals who did not represent a threat to IDF personnel, including injured. The attacks continued even after attempts were made to surrender and a multilingual surrender announcement was made over the ship’s public address system.

Disproportionate weaponry was used, including widespread use of paintball guns and live fire from automatic and semi-automatic weapons.


As a consequence nine passengers were killed. Turkish autopsy reports concluded that five of the deceased were shot in the head at close range. The Turkish Commission describes those killed as follows:

- Furkan Doğan received five gunshot wounds in the back of his head, nose, left leg, left ankle and in the back, all from close range. A citizen of the United States, Mr. Doğan was a 19-year-old high school student with ambitions of becoming a medical doctor. Mr. Doğan’s motionless, wounded body was kicked and shot upon, execution-style by two Israeli soldiers.

‐ Cengiz Akyüz received four gunshot wounds, in the back of his head, right side of his face, the back and the left leg. Mr. Akyüz was married and a 41-year-old father of three.

‐ Ali Haydar Bengi received a total of six gunshot wounds, in the left side of his chest, belly, right arm, right leg and twice in the left hand. Mr. Bengi was married, a 39-year-old father of four.

‐ İbrahim Bilgen received four gunshot wounds, in the right temple, right chest, right hip and back. Mr. Bilgen was married, 61-year-old father of six, who worked as an electrical engineer.

‐ Cevdet Kılıçlar, a photographer, was killed by a single distant shot to the middle of the forehead. He was shot most probably with a laser-pointer rifle. Mr. Kılıçlar was married, 38-year-old father of two.

‐ Cengiz Songür was killed by a single gunshot wound in the front of the neck. He was a 47-year-old textile worker, married and the father of seven.

‐ Necdet Yıldırim received two gunshot wounds in the right shoulder and left back. He was 32-years-old, married, father of one.

‐Çetin Topçuoğlu was killed by three gunshot wounds in the back of the head, the hip and the belly. He was 54-years old, married and a father of one.

‐ Fahri Yaldız was killed by four gunshot wounds: left chest, left leg and twice in the right leg. He was 43 years-old, married and father of four, and worked as a fire-fighter.

In addition, there were widespread injuries to other passengers from different nationalities, many serious, including broken bones, and internal injuries requiring surgery. One passenger remains in a coma.

IDF personnel deliberately prevented passengers from providing first aid to the injured despite repeated requests, resulting in additional casualties.

freehand

Kao i obično - nemam pojma o čemu pričaš te je potpuno logično da ne znam šta si hteo da nkažeš.

freehand

Ako si hteo da kažeš da je Kristijan Amanpur tvoj primer delikatne i inteligentne propagande - bah. Rafinman ti je u skladu sa jasnoćom iznošenja stavova.

freehand

Što se klipa o šutiranju u glavu tiče - dabre. Ona je njega prva pokušala da šutne u cevanicu, a on je, jadan, nastradao od nemilosrdnih zakona Linkolnovih. Zašto? Samo zato pto se branio.
Ali pokušavam da na osnovu iskustava iz poslednjih godina i decenija zamislim šta bi se desilo i dokle bi sezala nužna odbrana da joj je ten bio zagasitiji...

Goran Vučković

At 4.32 a.m., Israeli forces launched the attack without prior warning when several speedboats drew alongside the Mavi Marmara and IDF personnel commenced an attempt to board the vessel. The speedboats were shortly followed by combat helicopters. IDF personnel began firing on the Mavi Marmara from both the speedboats and helicopters before boarding had commenced. This included the use of live fire (including automatic and semi-automatic weapon fire) as well as stun and smoke grenades, paintball guns and rubber bullets. Two passengers were killed by shots from the helicopters before the first soldiers had boarded the vessel. The Captain
immediately changed the vessel’s course to the open sea on a bearing
of 270º, but Israeli naval frigates approached the vessel from the starboard bow and forced the convoy to turn back towards Israeli waters. Passengers on board the Mavi Marmara panicked and acted in self-defence to prevent the IDF personnel from boarding the vessel. Passengers threw plastic bottles, waste bins and chairs at IDF personnel attempting to board from the speedboats, and physically overpowered the first three soldiers to rappel onto the vessel from the helicopters but no guns or other weapons were used.

The Turkish Commission concludes that IDF personnel used excessive force both before and after boarding. There was indiscriminate shooting, includ
ing from the helicopters. There were also targeted attacks on individuals w
ho did not represent a threat to IDF personnel, including injured. The attacks continued even after attempts were made to surrender and a multilingual surrender announcement was made over the ship’s public address system.

Disproportionate weaponry was used, including widespread use of paintball guns and live fire from automatic and semi-automatic weapons.


As a consequence nine passengers were killed. Turkish autopsy reports concluded that five of the deceased were shot in the head at close range. The Turkish
Commission describes
those killed as follows:

- Furkan Doğan received five gunshot wounds in the back of his head, nose, left leg, left ankleand in the back, all from close range. A citizen of the United States, Mr. Doğan was a 19-year-old high school student with ambitions of becoming a medical doctor. Mr. Doğan’s motionless, wounded body was kicked and shot upon, execution-style by two Israeli soldiers.

‐ Cengiz Akyüz received four gunshot wounds, in the back of his head, right side of his face, the back and the left leg. Mr. Akyüz was married and a 41-year-old father of three.

‐ Ali Haydar Bengi received a total of six gunshot wounds, in the left side of his chest, belly, right arm, right leg and twice in the left hand. Mr. Bengi was married, a 39-year-old father of four.

‐ İbrahim Bilgen received four gunshot wounds, in the right temple, right chest, right hip and back. Mr. Bilgen was married, 61-year-old father of six, who worked as an electrical engineer.

‐ Cevdet Kılıçlar, a photographer, was killed by a single distant shot to the middle of the forehead. He was shot most probably with a laser-pointer rifle. Mr. Kılıçlar was married, 38-year-old father of two.

‐ Cengiz Songür was killed by a single gunshot wound in the front of the neck. He was a 47-year-old textile worker, married and the father of seven.

‐ Necdet Yıldırim received two gunshot wounds in the right shoulder and left back. He was 32-years-old, married, father of one.

‐Çetin Topçuoğlu was killed by three gunshot wounds in the back of the head, the hip and the belly. He was 54-years old, married and a father of one.

‐ Fahri Yaldız was killed by four gunshot wounds: left chest, left leg and twice in the right leg. He was 43 years-old, married and father of four, and worked as a fire-fighter.

In addition, there were widespread injuri es to other passengers from different nationalities, many serious, including broken bones, and internal injuries requiring surgery. One passenger remains in a coma.

IDF personnel deliberately prevented passengers from providing first aid to the injured despite repeated requests, resulting in additional casualties.

Izvor

freehand

Jer , po njima (tim zlobnima), Budimac radi isto sto i Kristijana, pazljivo bira i prezentuje istine koje mu odgovaraju. Pravo da ti kazem, razumecu Budimca ako se naljuti na tebe, i ja bih se naljutioda me uporedish sa Kristijanom.

Aj ono bla-truć pre i posle - nema veze. To je samo Domazet.
Al od ovoga i tebe mora da boli glava.

Nikako da zaboravis onu posteljinu sto su moji oteli od tvojih

I tvrdis, odnosno tvrdi turska komisija, da su Izraelci pucali bojevom municijom, dok su se njihovi spustali niz konopce naoruzani sa paintball guns? Da mi je znati sta li tek tvrdi Izraelska komisija. Oni garant tvrde da je prvi komandos bio odvaljen po glavi dok je pokusavao da se izljubi sa prvim mirnim putnikom koji mu je pao pod ruke. I kome sada da veruju neki od nas?? Srecom ti nisi neki od nas, ti znas kome da verujes

The loss of life and injuries resulting from the use of force by Israeli forces during the take-over of the Mavi Marmara was unacceptable. Nine passengers were killed and many others seriously wounded by Israeli forces.
No satisfactory explanation has been provided to the Panel by Israel for any of the nine deaths. Forensic evidence showing that most of the deceased were shot multiple times, including in the back, or at close range has not been adequately accounted for in the material presented by Israel.

There was significant mistreatment of passengers by Israeli authorities after
the take-over of the vessels had been completed through until their deportation. This included physical mistreatment, harassment and intimidation, unjustified confiscation of belongings and the denial of timely consular assistance.

Goran Vučković

Nikako da zaboravis onu posteljinu sto su moji oteli od tvojih

I tvrdis, odnosno tvrdi turska komisija, da su Izraelci pucali bojevom municijom, dok su se njihovi spustali niz konopce naoruzani sa paintball guns? Da mi je znati sta li tek tvrdi Izraelska komisija. Oni garant tvrde da je prvi komandos bio odvaljen po glavi dok je pokusavao da se izljubi sa prvim mirnim putnikom koji mu je pao pod ruke. I kome sada da veruju neki od nas?? Srecom ti nisi neki od nas, ti znas kome da verujes

Iskreno, ja nisam jedan od vas koji prave sprdnju sa listom pobijenih, od kojih neki mecima u potiljak iz blizine ili u čelo iz daljine.

Ali kad pomenu izraelsku komisiju - isti dokument, strane 4 i 5 (bold je moj):

The loss of life and injuries resulting from the use of force by Israeli forces during the take-over of the Mavi Marmara was unacceptable. Nine passengers were killed and many others seriously wounded by Israeli forces.
No satisfactory explanation has been provided to the Panel by Israel for any of the nine deaths. Forensic evidence showing that most of the deceased were shot multiple times, including in the back, or at close range has not been adequately accounted for in the material presented by Israel.

There was significant mistreatment of passengers by Israeli authorities after
the take-over of the vessels had been completed through until their deportation. This included physical mistreatment, harassment and intimidation, unjustified confiscation of belongings and the denial of timely consular assistance.

freehand

I JA pravim sprdnju? A Erdogan i Natanijahu se izljubili i nikom nista. Ako je verovati CNNu, razume se.

Tako sam se ja smejao sebi što nisam verovao da u celoj Ilinoji niko sa tobom domine neće da igra.