The Serbian Angle-Poised Lamp

"soooo, how do you like it here?", I respond "I don't". Swell way to confuse'em locals.

I wouldnt say it confuses the locals, even with your best intentions, but rather shows impolitnes, and my answer to that would be if you dont like it... leave.

If you have time on your hands, please read the answer to this question given by Mickey Z.

And, besides, I grew up here, I went to school here, I got married here, I work here, I pay taxes here, I vote here. This land is my land, this land is your land...Would you ask, say, a Cherokee the same question? And many don't like it here, believe me. (I was in the Cherokee Nation just a week ago).

yes, but you are not american, and you don't live here by accident. You chose to live here, despite the fact that you hate it. Why? Really, why? I would like to know what kind of thinking leads person to making such decision, since, obviosly (from reading other posts) you're not the only one, or rare example....

I love this country. (It's some people that I can't stand).

Or, as MZ would put it:"I don't hate America. In fact, think it's one of the best countries anyone ever stole."

So you're just bitter by default than, huh?

Look, many years ago, when I first came here, this was a different country. And I'm not just whining about the "good old times". Things have seriously changed for the worse; that's what bothers me.

If you happen to think that everything here is just hanky-dory, power to you.

Actually, i'm kind of thorn between thinking it’s none of my business (in the sense that I shouldn’t say anything), since I’m only guest here, and thinking that if I should contribute to the debate (about what’s wrong in the us) since it’s my goal for the US to be better, so every criticism would be well intentioned.

That said, there is no country where I would rather live, and things that bug me here somehow bug me way less than things I hate about Serbia, and things that I find great here are way more important than things I don’t like (although I do watch Colbert :)

it really is a matter of perspective. For somebody starting their career, somebody healthy and young, this is the greatest country. And rightfully so. On the other hand, I know quite a few people (including my younger brother) who spent good part of their life here, went back to Serbia, and live a great life there. Also, it helps if you happen to be rich :)))

for me it's not about the money, it's the mentality and way of life that i don't like in serbia...although i do like the money. a lot :)

it helps to be rich if you want to live a good life in Serbia. First of all, you don't have to work for a living then.

As for the "mentality and the way of life" - this is the thing applicable to any place, including Serbia, including the US. If you surround yourself with few good friends, you're OK, and it doesn't matter where you live.

yeah, that sounds very romantic, but not really true. there is some "truthiness" to it, at best :)

In your post you state, "...it's my goal for the US to be better..."

Out of curiosity, what would it take to substitute "Serbia" in place of the "US" in your response?

Don't get me wrong, I personally think it's great that citizens of Serbia study, work, and live abroad and absorb as much of the world's "best practices" be it in academia, business, the arts, science etc. The challenge is creating the right conditions enabling these people to return and contribute to the betterment of Serbian society. The point I'm trying to understand is what are those few key conditions that would start drawing people back.

if this question was directed to me. The words you quote: "...it's my goal for the US to be better..." are not in any of my postings.

As for the second part of your question, I can only answer for myself.

First, as a matter of principle, I think it is great that people from all over the place go to study, work, live in countries all over the place. Getting to know each other is the first step towards building the better world.

Second, I am not your typical case, as I have moved between Europe and the US three times so far. I've studied, worked, and taught in Serbia, as well as here. Many of my former students are now teaching in the US, many are in Europe, many are in Serbia (one of them even run for the president in Montenegro!). What makes people "return"? I don't know. What makes Chinese professionals go back to China? Japanese to Japan? I personally think it is a matter of personal circumstances and "global" factors, and can not be engineered.

Actually my post was directed to "Brooklyn", but that's ok. Any and all comments are more than welcome.

What I'm trying to understand is the following, given the choice between "trying to make the US better" and "trying to make Serbia better" what factors drive someone from Serbia to opt for the former insead of the latter.

In my opinion, economy is the key factor, even though it becomes progressively less important once we've exceeded some threshold standard of living. Cultural background might come back into focus then although with family and daily routine most people find it hard to make a move.
Once in US (or in UK in my case) it becomes only natural to try and make our host country better.

For me it is not a choice in the sense that I would like to make both places better. Having said that, I do feel Serbia as my true home, even after 10 years abroad. This is partly because things happen from time to time to remind me that I am still foreign in a way. I feel foreign to Serbia too actually, but I don't actually live there and when I go I'm in a party mood, so this is less of a problem ;-)
But I thought to give you an answer to the "what would it take..." question, at least as it is for me. It could be summed up in two words: MERITOCRACY and SECURITY.
Meritocracy: I think just about everyone in Serbia has had enough of family connections and friends which are widely used for anything, from access to a doctor, through jobs, to getting away with murder (literally). I'm sick of it. I would like not to have to find a distant relative (who is also to be gifted with bottles of whiskey and such) when I am sick, or have to pay through my nose (blackmail style). I'd just like it simple - if you're good for the job you get it, if you're ill you get treated, if you murder someone you're put away as appropriate. Everything else is a waste of time, effort and nerves.
Security: it kind of goes hand in hand with meritocracy, but there's also the fact that violence is much more a part of the culture than in the UK (of US I don't know). I have been through the mill and live to tell the tale, but I sure as anything wouldn't like the same for my kids. From the sheer number of hotheads, legal and illegal weaponry and most of all the fact that too many people see violence as the only way to sort things out.
And a small anecdote at the end. I tried to set up some (professional) jobs for companies in Serbia, wishing to help my country. Six times out of seven I failed, and was totally embarassed professionally. They were just not bothered about bringing a new client to their company (large companies) or in some cases could not organise the job becauseone of the links in the chain hated everyone else and wanted to undermine them. One time that I did manage to arrange something was a job well done, though this was with three people only and a relatively small job. and I will keep trying. But it makes it extremely difficult that there are people whose only thought is themselves, and then all they want is not to get paid for nothing. But I still hope this will improve with time.

There is a large number of us, Serbs, working in the same IT company with offices in Belgrade and London.
At the beginning we were employing Belgrade people by, amongst other criteria, making sure that some of them wanted to come to UK while some of them wanted to stay in Belgrade, so to could have balanced company while all the training happened in Belgrade as it was cheaper.
With decent salaries in Belgrade, the second Serbia achieved any political stability it became harder and harder persuading people to come to UK.
However, UK people are not thinking of going back yet.

Well in my case, Serbia is just too small in terms of career opportunities for me. It has nothing to do with it being poor, even if it had high per capita GDP it would still be small economy. I also prefer lifestyle here, but if i were to get some kick ass career opportunity elsewhere i might just suck it up and move there. However that is unlikely to be Serbia.

Other than me moving back full time, my goal is Serbia to be better too, and i would be interested in participating in some way in projects with such goal. Projects i would be interested in would be ones that aim to facilitate people like me, but who decided to stay. in my opinion young, ambitious, entrepreneurial people would be helped best if they are allowed to function in open, liberal economy and have access to cheap capital. So, to conclude, i would be interested in projects that are concerned with those.

This was response to Peter Griffin question to me. somehow i out it in wrong place...

know a person who has finished MBA here a few years back. He was offered a "dream job" with starting salary cca 170K, plus bonuses. While he was still considering this, he received a letter from Serbia with a job offer in the government. He declined the "dream job", went back, and now lives in Serbia happily.

my respect to him. smart, productive person can contribute to the world in many ways and in many places. it is a matter of choice.

i never implied that you can't contribute meaningfully in serbia. i just said it wasn't my choice.

anything in your post. I was just giving an example of a decision that is not that common, but possible and real.

But, let me illustrate my point in a simple way.

Yesterday, on B92 website there was a picture of Kostunica, Serbian Prime Minister, visiting Belgrade University, and a person right next to him holding a sign "I can not pay for this!" ("Nemam da Platim") right into his face.

This is the kind of picture that I saw many years ago, in the US, when people were protesting against American foreign policies. People holding signs and protesting before the President. At that time, in Yugoslavia, it was inconceivable to have anybody like that disturbing president Tito in his little pilgrimages to "his people". And I thought: "America is the land of the free". There is where you can say what you want and not be killed, arrested, harrased, etc. I am going there!

Today, the whole thing is reversed. The other day, a guy in Colorado (while pushing a stroller with a baby in it, for God's sake!) approached Dick Cheney at some public gathering, and said: "I don't agree with your policies!". He then left. Ten minutes later, he was arrested by the FBI in a nearby park for disturbing the VP.

That's my whole point. It seems that Freedom doesn't live here anymore.

Oooops, this response was addressed to Mirko (right below) :)))

not impressed by the extreme left propaganda frustrated with their own inability to function in the society of winners and losers.
go to sweden?

…if you are among the winners. Though, it looks a bit anti-Darwinian. Kinda states that evolution stopped at wolves.

my response to your post is above...sorry:)))

As for your social comment, to their own peril humans have always admired predators. As they say: "Criminal is a person with predatory instinct who has not yet accumulated enough wealth to start a corporation". Then, he is called a winner.

with these fantastic numbers? Did you just estimate them (by whatever means)? Made them up? Have some real polls that back them up?

Also, you say: "they also think that there can not be nothing interesing or nice in, or about serbia". How do you know these things? Do you expect that "they" will just kill themselves soon? (I mean, living in a state of despair, that seems a logical conclusion).

Yes, there are some real polls that delted with YOUTH living in Serbia, age 18-25 (there are app.550 000 people of that age) and the results were: 70% want to leave Serbia as soon as they finish school, or to find a job if they allready graduated, 85% of them HAVE NEVER TRAVELLED anywhere (Montenegro excluded), that is the generation born betweeen 1981 and 1989 so you can imagine what memories they have from their OWN CHILDHOOD - wars, refugies, strikes, inflatia (the highest ever on the planet!), electricity restrictions, heathing restrictions and strikes at schools , parents losing their jobs, riots, poverty, NATO bombing, gasoline in bottles (a child born 1989 was able to see the gas pump working for the first time when she/he was 12!!), worst shapes of hatred from media, conspiracy theories about everything, criminalization of society with worst mafia guys being raised to the level of national heroes. Want more? They do not see perspective, or system of values, or any future because they were never shown that good future for Serbia and they are not to be blamed for that, it was (and is) the duty for leadership of the country. And they do not believe in leadership. How could they with memories like those they have? 70% of them say in polls: "Nobody listens to my opignion, nobody really cares what do I think, what do I want". Is it solvable, is it possible to do somathing in society for them, is there real opportunity to reverse the question "should I stay or should I go" (to quote famous R`n`R song) to "shold I try to make things better for me here?". I am trying to reverse it and the results are poor, still. But I will keep trying however it looks like "mission imposible" most of the time.

I really didn't mean to be rude, I just didn't know these numbers. I'll keep them in mind now. Thanks again :)

Same here, though, in the 90's I was asked to explain my views on Milosevic to every Tom, Dick and Harry.

Still, it didn't feel as interrogation...

he works for MI7... And he's a mason?
...
...
Can I join?
:-P

.. that any Englishman or other foreigner showing a positive interest in Serbia's well-being, must of necessity be a spy or have some other hidden agenda :)

Did Mr Darcy move to Serbia? Is he a spy?

How romantic.....