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Srbija 2020

Fatherly Insight

"Lucy, be careful. Those people can be dangerous." That was my father's reaction when I mentioned passing the Serbian Radical Party's demonstration held in honor of Vojslav Šešelj on my way into town Saturday. When I thought about the characters I saw as I wandered through the edge of the crowd gathered outside the US Embassy - a frail old woman, head covered in a scarf, cane in hand; a tacky, scantily clad twenty-something female dressed more for a nightclub than a political demonstration; and a young orthodox priest, swallowed by his flowing, black garb - I scoffed at this warning. Collectively these characters embodied the strange bedfellows represented by the Radical Party, but as individuals they each seemed more comical than threatening.

When it comes to Šešelj and his role in Serbian politics, however, I'm not sure if a light chuckle is the most appropriate response. The man's story is pretty incredible (this will be nothing new for local readers, but worth repeating for those of you who have failed to keep up with Serbia's political scene). Now known internationally for his crimes against humanity, he was once the youngest PhD recipient in Yugoslavia. As a professor in Sarajevo, he developed a reputation for his nationalism and was even dubbed the "Duke of Četniks" on the 600th anniversary of the battle of Kosovo, while traveling through, ironically enough, the United States. Perhaps taking this title a bit too seriously, he formed a nationalist political party and a paramilitary force in the early 1990s. Ten years and a handful of war crimes later, he's turned himself over to the Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia, but has recently brought his trail to a halt as he is now on hunger strike in the name of spousal visits and self-selected legal representation (a less legitimate request than it seems given his record of harassing witness while representing himself in court). Now French doctors are being specially brought in to treat this man who, despite likely kidney failure, has refused to be seen by Dutch medical staff. Serbian news sources provide the public with daily updates on his health status, and reports of his hunger strike have made it into international news (New York Times, BBC). All this has conveniently aligned with the start of campaigns for Serbia's upcoming parliamentary elections, and who is the top listed member for the party holding the most seats in the current parliament? None other than the Duke of Četniks himself.

All in all, I cannot figure out how best to interpret this hubbub around Šešelj. The whole thing makes for an absolutely ridiculous story, but when I remember that the "story" is non-fiction and the these "characters" at the demonstration are real Serbs with real perceptions and real voting power, should I be more scared than entertained?

According to an article run earlier in the week on B92.net, the former Slovenian Ambassador to Serbia and Montenegro warned that Šešelj, with his antics in the Hague, should not be underestimated as a threat to democracy in Serbia. In contrast, however, I've generally heard Belgrade citizens just shrug off the whole thing. One described it all as the nationalists' last stand, based more on hot air and theatrics than any real political strength. Another just lamented the continuation of the tension she remembered between Belgrade citizens and the crowds in attendance at Milošević's rallies in the 1990s.

And maybe that is all Šešelj and the nationalist trend really amounts to - a carry over from the 1990s that will ebb as more time is put between current Serbia and the Milošević years. But I still found the face a war criminal plastered all over the capital city a bit unsettling, not to mention the sheer number of people that turned out for his rally.

My father's words of warning were meant in regards to my physical wellbeing, but are perhaps better applied elsewhere. I doubt the degree to which Šešelj and his party are any real threat to my personal safety or that of any foreigner in Serbia - though he is know for threatening internationals before the Serbian parliament ("If we cannot grab all their [NATO] planes, we can grab those within our reach, like various Helsinki committees, and Quisling groups." - Human Rights Watch Report). Instead it seems that those most at risk in the whole situation are the supporters of the Serbian Radical Party themselves, those being manipulated by a hand now shriveling away in Holland. But I've been told again and again that Serbia is unpredictable, so I suppose only time will tell.


king pest

Quote:

a frail old woman, head covered in a scarf, cane in hand; a tacky, scantily clad twenty-something female dressed more for a nightclub than a political demonstration; and a young orthodox priest, swallowed by his flowing, black garb

king pest


unpredictable

indeed!!!
I remember years ago, during the protests in Nis, how I fell in love with that city.
Boulevards filled with people, smiling at the freezing air...
Skyscrapers lit like a christmas tree,
people everywhere...in the streets, balkonies, windows, and all of them smiling.
This unpredictable city I chose to ignore, not to connect with, because it seemed distant and quite impersonal, all of a sudden grabbed my very personality by the heart.
The masses walked slowly, but steadily, day in day out.
And everywhere I turned, all I could see was decency.
There was this old lady, 70 and something, who walked side by side, not flinching for even the moment to catch her breath. (a little woman that could...)
I can't bring the physiology of her face to my mind, and probably if I had the chance to go past her I wouldn't be able to recognize her, but somehow that face still echoes in my head, like a legacy, it's engraved in my memory in the shape of a pure human spirit I have to pass on.


fringe element

My hope is that with the improvement of the general living situation in Serbia (and it is improving), parties like the Radicals will slowly become marginalized.
Ideologically, they have nowhere to retreat but a deeper dellusionary view of the world around them. Essentially, the better Serbia gets, the wierder the Radicals will look. Eventually, they will become a curiosity more than a political force. Something like the KKK in the US. Everyone is disgusted when they stage a protest, but they're more pathetic than dangerous. You know, something that angry teenage boys get involved in to piss off their parents. Anyway... lets hope that we're moving in that direction.


solomon, ch-ch-ch check zis out!

from - из
your - твоје
keyboard - тастатуре
to - у
god's - божје
ears - уши

:)


lucy, look,

your father may be worried with a good reason.
i can imagine the few of them, this zombies of Kenjingrads´ zombie-zone (mostly women; angry women are stupid and mean, stupid women are angry and mean: dont get me wrong- i love women, but not the stupid one. the women you saw must be stupid) hearing you speaking in some foriegn language, grabing you in some kind of overpatriotical trance caused by demolishnig trumpets of serbian jericho (foriegn language), abusing and strangling you ... the next thing you might be hearing is ambulance blues.
those people are able to do any kind of stupidity in order to unburdon their own hopelessness, well packed in pseudopatriaprodomo that burns in their wasted hearts.

so, take care - be ware, lucy !

although my warning might cause laughter you should be avoiding such a places, and never speak in english having those people around you.

i might be wrong advising you to be cowered ( in case of wrong spelling - srpski :kukavica). but - why should you have troubles with people out of their minds?

and , you are right. in order to preserve my mind, out of precaution i left serbia imeadiatly after nato-bombing. i couldn´t stand serbian deadly mixture of craziness and stupidity furthermore. i even thought; serbia is a cursed land, area. so off i went - without visum, without any money or words i came in germany - to stay.
now i can speak in deutsch. english ? not realy, hopefully enough to save your life :):).

sincerly,
milosh b.


Facts and figures (of speach)

Lucy honey,
'...Now known internationally for his crimes against humanity...' !?

Really!?

And that is probably the reason for keeping him in jail without an indictment for about four years now.

Wrong premise, wrong conclusion.

It seems to me Lucy that you have some skin in this game?
I'm too busy to check your grammar, spelling... and so forth, but at the first glance, your syntax seems 'fishy'.
But maybe that's because you speak 'deutsch' - as my overly servile brother does.

BTW, As much as I dislike sheshelj - I despize liars.
And you Lucy, are not are not the brightest star in the honest sky.

Little bitter, little sad - why am I wasting my time on this? Maybe Lucy is just a ghost? A pre-election ghost... Half educated (maybe even barely graduated) Serbian citizen, with the TOEFL cert?

Listen to your father Lucy, stay at home. These are dangerous times. Get a delivery. A boy-toy with a 'deutsch' accent. Direct deposit, and expense your dial-up. F'it Lucy, it's every man for himself.


... morava-ibar `?

... are you really said because of self-called Duke doing his time without indictment?
let us call him martyr, a despised witness, that has made many people become morders or mordered ...
is that not enough for indictment ?
ok, you told us about your ideas who Lucy might be.
can you tell us something (anything ?) a bit closer about yourself?
how honest are you? are you brave enough to tell us who you are ?
it´s pretty easy to fall over someone - well covered by a mask of a ghostly nick-name ? a proud citizen of ZOMBIE_ZONE, or what ?
are you brave enough, Srbine ?


so many questions, so little time

Aion - please try to formulate your questions in a coherent manner. If you really want answers, that is.
Now, Lucy can coach you about is it possible (in a modern, democratic society) to have someone in jail for four years without an indictment.
Is my name going to help you understand what I'm talking about? I doubt. In more than one way.
Brave enough? Well, that's just plain silly.
ZOMBIE_ZONE - I don't know what that is, but since you're asking about my citizenship - I am proud to be a citizen of Serbia.
And, if possible - I would appreciate if you address me in less emotional and more civil manner.


a plenty of time, no answers

... of course i want answers, mr. morava-ibar.
a few more, even. why is it silly to be brave, or to expect from someone who is calling Lucy Moore a liar, hidden behind a false name (nick name) to tell the auditorium his own name ?!
second, i don´t understand your motives playing a useless advocate for vojislav sheshelj, who went to hague- to defend himself, on his own free will ?
how could he defend himself if there was no charges against him ?
and, please don´t tell me that you are worried about human wrights.
i think we are dealing here, in your case, with animosity.
maybe you can teach us better and tell us what is actualy you don´t like about Lucys´ text ? only indictment ?
and you know that is possible to have someone jailed for years without indictment - see guantanamo bay, for example.


on and on and on...

I'll give you another few minutes and then you're on your own.
'...why is it silly to be brave...' - it gets sillier by the minute. Just stop it.
'... hidden behind a false name ...' - common now, this is basic stuff - we're not in the kindergarten here.
'...useless advocate for vojislav sheshelj,...' - Now, how does that compare to you 'defending' lucy?
'...animosity...' - Well, finally you're getting somewhere :) Of course there's animosity. I'm surprised it took you so long.

And, what about 'guantanamo'!? For example of what?

I guess i didnt make my point clear to you - but I'm also pretty sure that you're only interested in getting your point accross to Lucy.
In a way - we're even.

'...Forget what you just heard and go back to sleep...'


Deprived of sympathies

I agree that it is scandalous that this man (or any other person accused of a crime) has not yet been brought to trial after such a long time spent in custody. Almost four years, that is a very long time.

But, but! I really do not feel like taking Seselj's side when it comes to depriving him of rights to defend himself. First of all, the man has no respect for human beings of "unsuitable" nationality, religion or profession. That is not a sufficient justification for depriving him of some of his rights, but in comination with things like:
- harrassing the employees of the Tribunal
- offending the employees of the Tribunal
- seeking any possible loophole in international law to obstruct the process,
- not to mention the viciousness and monstrocities we here have all whitnessed during the 90's on TV (having his gorilla severely beat the man who disagreed with him in a talk-show, and then saying with a diabolical grin that the man slipped on a banana peel; threatening the Croats with a rusty spoon).
it is enough for me not to have the sympathies for him.

And maybe the most important fact right now is that the trial had been scheduled (finally) last October, but the man refused to show up, probably to use another loophole, coz the date wasn't right for him and his party (it was late October, the negotiations about the date of the elections were on). Only after this have they made a decision to deprive him of his rights to defend himself in court. It was October 25th. But did he start the hunger strike then? Nooo. He started it on November 10th, which accidentally coincided with the announcement of the elections date.

I do not have much sympathies for him, other than the fact that I wish he receives a fair trial.


I am quite impressed with

I am quite impressed with how much you now, taking into consideration that you have arrived here recently, if I am right. Congratulations!
For me, all that drama in the Hague is Seselj being insane. Who normal would torture himself like that? And we are supposed to feel sorry for his children on the telly "I wanna speak with daddy". If he had been thinking of his children, he would never had done what he did. Insanity! Nothing else.
No, not me, I don't fall for that. He inflicted it upon himself.
You, Lucy, be careful when passing a group of people like that. But don't be paranoid. These are different times from the 90's and the perceptive your father probably has of Serbia. Sorry if that's not the case.


therapy?

...amazing what a load of bollocks one can read here... almost everyone has already sentenced seselj to eternal damnation, without even staging a trial, as if his guilt is beyond doubt. that's what u should b scared of, lucy... ever heard of joseph k.?


...ever heard of dr.

...ever heard of dr. sheshelj ?


The media have passed the

The media have passed the sentence. Isn't that enough?


judge & jury

Lucy,
You should know better than to say that Šešelj is a war criminal until he's been convicted as such.
'Alleged', 'accused', 'suspected' – by all means, but don’t convict the man until the courts have.
I really can’t believe I’m having to explain this to you!!! Nuff said.


Good post, but careful about touting standard narratives

Hi Lucy,

Firstly let me say that I consider the Radicals and what they stand for to be a dire threat to the welfare of Serbia and I sincerely hope they are trounced in the election (although I think they will win).

My problem is that I think that Western governments and agencies like the ICTY (The Hague Tribunal) are handing the Radicals publicity by being heavy handed with Sesjl and other Serbs.

Sesjl is indicted on a highly contentious charge of being part of a Joint Criminal Enterprise. This is an ad hoc crime created as a variant of Roman Dutch Law's "Common Purpose" principle "as a means of assigning criminal liability to individuals for activities carried out by a collective"(1).

There are furious debates about its validity and application as it comes extremely close to outlawing free speech or punishing expressions of opinion post facto. In Sesjl's case he is being accused of war crimes for speeches he made during the Bosnian war. The case against him obviously has some validity but is in reality very weak. The prosecution will have to avoid the "Crime of Opinion" charge as well as show that "the defendant entered into an express agreement with the physical perpetrators to commit the crimes charged"(2). This will prove to be extremely difficult.

To avoid any charges of libel or bias, make sure you refer to Mr Sesjl as an alleged war criminal until such a time as he is convicted of the crimes of which he is accused - something which may never happen.

The Radicals are also being helped by the fact that Sesjl has not been treated fairly in the Hague.

He is still being refused visitation by his family (the only prisoner to have have that restriction) and until his hunger strike he was not allowed to represent himself. These combined with the apparently weak charges against him make him appear to be a victim of Western political manipulation with the Hague as the business end of cudgel used to beat him (and by extension) the Radicals.

Generally it appears to me that Sesjl was indicted to damage the Radicals and take him out of the local Serbian political scene. By every account, he is apparently brilliant and a very canny strategist and to some it may have seemed like a good idea to rob the Radicals of their "brains". It was not a good idea and has been deeply counter-productive.

Martyrdom feeds Radicals wherever they are and the Radical cause is boosted by unfair treatment of Sesjl in the Hague.

His arraignment is deeply suspicious and reeks of political manipulation.

The clumsy attempts by Western governments and proxies to undermine the Radicals plays directly into the Radical party's hands as it reinforces the paranoia of their base with real examples of meddling and victimisation.

So, I recommend:

Releasing Sesjl immediately (the charges against him are possibly legally baseless).

Let the radicals go the same way as Jorg Haider's Austrian Freedom Party (FPÖ): Win an election, have a dreadful term in government, lose by a landslide to Democratic parties in the next election and implode. I don't want to hear any excuses that it all went wrong because Šešelj was not there to lead them.

Populists normally hit the buffers when they take office and I expect the Radicals will fulfill that prediction if they take office.

Perhaps Serbia needs to get this Radical phase over with so it can truly embrace its European future without any doubts about the folly of Ethnic Nationalism?

Kind regards

Jonathan
Limbicnutrition.com/blog/


finaly

out of all the comments ever posted on b92, yours is the one i wish i wrote.
well done.


Thanks!

That is one hell of a complement! Thanks :)

If you liked that post, you might like my video:

Balkan History in 17 Minutes

Kind regards

Jonathan
Limbicnutrition.com/blog/


yes,

Quote:
Let the radicals go the same way as Jorg Haider's Austrian Freedom Party (FPÖ): Win an election, have a dreadful term in government, lose by a landslide to Democratic parties in the next election and implode.

but don't forget that austria is established, viable democracy, which can't be said for serbia.


it seems like (maybe)

it seems like (maybe) someone´s making sheshelj martyrdom with a purpose to undermine serbia itself.

how and why it was possible to let the ex-yu wars become truth ?
could anyone have stopped those terrible wars before they even happened ?!

those questions sound naive, even crazy, in a manner of serbian conspiration theory (whole bad world against the heavanly creatures of serbia) but they are possible- so i am asking english speaking people what they think about those subjects ?


Ankara, Turkey - International tribunal for crimes in Iraq

Tonny Blair, right before he leaves us, writes a letter accusing jailors and the tribunal of poisoning him and asking to be examined by Canadian-US medical team. At the same time he points out that ten other British prisoners faced the same fate before, and that many others are to follow. Prosecutor Hasan Tarik (Iraq) denies the request immediately, explaining that Britain has 40+ million citizens and that, in statistical terms, ten or eleven is in the standard deviation domain. Judge Srinivas Brama (India) reminds mr. Tarik that prosecutor cannot make decisions about such requests, but does not reverse mr. Tarik’s decision and closes the discussion with ‘I’ll let it slide this time – if mr. prosecutor promises to stop using baseball bat as his main interrogation method’.
In the same time, mr. Brama expresses concern for the fact that defendants are dying in jail without a formal indictment and asks for indictments to be completed ASAP and backdated appropriately – making a silent mental note that tribunal’s death-to-conviction ratio is ‘basically and actually ridiculous’.
Next week, Tony kicks the bucket.
Labor Party members and sympathizers crowd the main square of London acting quite inappropriately, spitting everywhere and using bad language. Some, possibly not even using deodorant. Many are carrying large photos of Johnny Rotten, Admiral Nelson and David Beckam.
Members of the ‘European England’ party; all young, nice smelling, good looking and sharp dressing intellectuals are gathering on the other side of the square singing corporate hymns of BMW and Renault.
Some tourists are taking photos.
Lucy's father rushes to French embassy filing a request for political asylum.
Lucy is safe.
World makes sense.
Serb tourists in London, not used to scenes of such savagery, share comforting thoughts on numerous Brits&Labor party&EE party blogs, right after they send field reports to their government.


:))

a small classic :)


Морава Ибар

Алал вера мајсторе! Гласам да постанеш ВИП блогер. Као и ти, не могу да се отмем утиску да нешто фали овој Луси Мур. Веома иритантна особа. Довољно добро познајем енглески, стварно нешто није у реду са њеном писменошћу. Да ли је глупа, необразована, или само глуми француску собарицу из Мисисипија? И чему Шешељева биографија? То сваки Србин зна,. Али, на страну све то, њен проблем. Има нешто озбиљно wrong with this picture. Човече, она НИКОМ не одговара. Напише састав у, у најбољем случају, средњошколском стилу, збркано, без поенте, без идеје о чему пише, и онда заћути. Да ли би неко, рецимо опасни модератор, могао ово да објасни. Поздрав.
П. С. Написао бих на енглеском, латиницом, али нема поенте. Не вреди да пишем ситно писмо зиду.


Thx

Fala lepo for the VIP part. In all my modesty I would consider that to be a demotion, rather than a promotion. :)
That would obligate me to:
- make a fool of myself,
- then post numerous appologies,
- explain myself over and over, trying to put a favorable spin to my ranting
- leave the blog after comforting my devostated 'please dont leave' followers, and so on...

Not that I'm lazy, but it's a lot of work.

And it's kind of tacky.


Point taken

I was incorrect in saying that he was known for war crimes rather than accused of war crimes. It probably speaks a lot to the presentation of information I've found as a part of an American audience, but I should have given more thought to my phrasing. For that I apologize.
That being said, I'm new here and still learning, but such criticism only increases the learning curve so keep it coming (but I'd appreciate it if it didn't involve rants about stupid women and angry women...).

And I should mention that even though I do not often respond, an approach I decided to take from the beginning, I do read all the comments I am given, even if it means deciphering Cyrillic.


Oh my, she speaks!

Thank you for showing interest. Maybe I was a bit harsh in my last post, but I have to agree with Morava/Ibar. Its the way you write, it just doesnt sound honest. Maybe in the near future you won*t sound like you from Mars, when you ajust to „serbian jungle”. Bye.


....

like i said lucy - i have nothing for or against women more than i do for men.
but i simply can not imagine a man, even a serbian sheshelj-lovers, beating up an unknown woman on the street. i also think - those women on belgrade streets could do this. they don´t have to, of course, but they also don´t have to admire sheshelj - what´s in my mind admiration of orthodox silent violence and insanity.

and what the difference does it make in a world today if someone sleeps in jail with or without indicment ?
i mean, represents of white democracy, who trust in god and dollars and cents brought us the liberation idea in order to suspense it on terms of its own interests - inerests to low to be mentioned. now we are all slaves,
and fighting against this kind of global tiranny is mostly inspired by money too, or making of an unreal image of oneself (i asume and hope out there are also some good people, but i am afraid not enough to save us before this poisoned fog reducing our thinking in naked survival battle) -
it is not love or respect towards probality of a Mankind . today we are leaving the travesty of those probality (potential).-
well, ....
"there is a better world,
there must be..." sings paul morrisey in one lullaby.
let us hope so.

pozdrav,
m.


Beating women on the streets of Belgrade...

...has happened and it was Nationalists who did it.

In 2001 when "football hooligans" and religious fanatics (chanting "Srbija! Srbija") attacked a gay rights parade in Belgrade. They beat up women, marchers, passers-by, journalists and police.

See for yourself as these brave men attack people 20-on-1 and beat-up women.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKmjpthxCOE

This represents the worst of Serbia and unless it is confronted and seen for what it is (thuggery and cowardice) it will just get worse.

JD


aion

Namerno odgovaram na srpskom,jer mi se čini da uz sve pokušaje da ga zaboraviš odlično razumeš.
Nemam ništa protiv tvog stava da kao i svaki "realan" Srbin pređeš na drugu stranu,kad hoćeš da sebe predstaviš "širokim" i realanim,međutim ti si sve objasnio u svom prvom komentaru.Ti bežiš iz bezumlja,bez pare i dinara priključujući se "razumnom" svetu (koji ako nisi po njihovim aršinima i ne prihvataš njihove vrednosti)rešava sve konflikte na veoma jednostavan način.Ubija sve redom,pravi svoje paralelno "ad hoc"pravo i najviše voli likove koji to još opravdavaju.U zadnjem komentaru posle Morava- Ibar basne koju si ipak shvatio (jer čovek je tom fantastičnom sublimacijom svega što si trebao da shvatiš)u param-parčad razbio tvoj kvazi-kosmopolitski stav o celom problemu,provejavaju tvoji pomirljiviji stavovi i rekao bih vrsta kajanja koja je svojstvena ljudima koji,naš narod kaže,trče pred rudu.
Lako je shvatiti da je poenta tvog komentara bila da si obrazovan i da eto bezeći iz ove "Stradije" profitirao jer si zaboga naučio nemački.Kladim se da nisi,ne bar onako kako govore oni kojima je to maternji.Uvek će te provaliti da si auslender(ma koliko se od dolaska tamo trudiš da budeš Fritz),i tek ćeš onda shvatiti da nisi ni tamo ni ovamo,da ne pripadaš nigde.A to je najgore SRBINE.


Seselj - private army

Seselj founded his own private army. Why?
And why were private armies allowed to exist in Serbia?
First answer: he wanted to solve his problems with violence.
Second answer: the government wanted to do the same and expected him to help.
In any civilized country private armies are criminal. In Serbia, they make heroes. Or can I say "made" heroes?


I have to agree..

...private militias are a symptom of lawlessness and corruption.

But that was then.

Is there still a paramilitary faction supporting Seselj?

JD
Limbicnutrition.com/blog


Seselj did never have any

Seselj did never have any kind of private army, unless organizing and sending recruits to the front within regular army units qualifies as having a private army. What he did and still does have is an influental political party which feeds off the current economic situation and peoples' reaction to the double standards that USA and EU apply in dealing with the ethnic conflicts in the region...


White Eagles

Mr. Wiseguy: What about the White Eagles?
My posting was based on interviews during the early nineties. Seselj's private army, or paramilitaries if you prefer this word, was well known, as was Arkan's. A smaller group of the same kind was founded by the now foreign minister Drashkovic, but since he didn't have Milosevic's support it never was very important. Seems Drashkovic should be in jail in Hague, too.