Is Serbia Guilty Of Genocide?

...da te ceo svet razume.

Serbs are not the only ones who read this blog.

vidim ja da Vi znate srpski, nego se Vi plašite da će vas neko kritikovati što se povladjujete srpskim lošim momcima, i tako počeli da pišete na njihov jezik...

prije nekog vremena sam kao komentar na jedan post JL poslala pitanje/poziv istome da na blogu komunicira (i) na srpskom. James Lyon se odazvao pozivu, pokazao spremnost da nastavi na blogu komunicirati na jeziku zemlje domacina. Problem je bio da su mu se blogeri nastavili obracati na engleskom.

U zemljama ne-engleskog govornog podrucja je cest slucaj da ljudi kojima je materinji engleski, a daju si truda da nauce jezik zemlje domacina, cesto nemaju priliku da isti koriste. Njihovi domacini daju prednost usavrsavanju svog engleskog s "native speakers", nego da istima daju priliku da nauce i usavrse njihov jezik.

U izvornom znacenju rec BRE znaci STOKA(govedo). Moj savet Vam je da je ne koristite iako je vrlo rasirena postapalica zato sto mnogi nemaju pojma sta ona u stvari znaci!

...da te ceo svet razume...

In case you missed it I was paraphrasing a legendary quote from Yugoslav cinematography.

То је широко раширена заблуда. Бре у турском значи тачно исто што и у српском - уопштена поштапалица. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bre

mora da je tacno :)

У питању је Викиречник. Свеједно сам проверио у Шкаљићевом Речнику турцизама.

"Bre" vuce korene iz "brate", "brale"...

pobij covjekove stavove ili ne s***

Some crimes are worse than other crimes (if you disagree, remember that crimes commited by Serbs are much worse than crimes commited over Serbs). Massive ethnic cleansing with hundreds of dead is smaller crime than genocide. This is why people insist on not calling it genocide.

The same way various organisations are using euphemism threadmills, they are creating dysphemism threadmills. In this particular case, they are using word "genocide" to describe something which really isn't, in order to make it look worse than it actually is. I don't see why would anyone subscribe to that.

Furthermore, the only thing which will be achieved in the long run, if the word "genocide" continues to be overabused, is that in future when you tell someone that "Jews suffered genocide in the Second World War" they won't see it as a very bad thing, as genocide will be equated with ethnic cleansings and massacres, so that to them it will sound as "Jews were massacred in the Second World War" would to us.

Or else we might call copyright infringement "theft" (wait, we already do that), call theft "murder", and then hang people for borrowing a book.

Majority of the people do not want to think about that. It is an ostrich behaviour; people do not want to face the painful past.
It is a very natural reaction, also given the fact that most of the people had no idea that attrocities to that degree were happenning while they were happening.
Put yourself in their shoes. Imagine your father is an arsenist and he was responsible for burning down a neighbors house. How often would you like to be reminded that your family is a criminal family, that you should all pay for the behaviour of the head of the household the reparation to the neighbor. Not that it would not serve justice to pay up the neighbor, but would that be your favorite topic of conversation. Would you like to hang out with people that keep reminding you of your father's crimes? What would be your attitude towards those people?

Add to that that the neighbour burned your shed, and the sheriff is looking the other way...

to je neshto drugo.. to se zove Demokratski Genocid i on je dozvoljen..

appèle cela "terrorisme en gros" par rapport à l'Al Kaida qui pratique "le terrorisme au détail". Les USA organisent leur terrorisme comme une affaire, puis ceux qui se défendent ou qui s'opposent, ils sont considérés comme criminel. Les USA sont, depuis toujours, gouvernés par des raclures.

Malo na francuskom, bre, da se vidi da Srbi nisu samo nebeski narod i genocidari, nego i da pričaju razne jezike. Am I right?

According to commonly accepted definitions of genocide it would be extremely difficult to accuse the US of genocide in those places. It is entirely possible, however, to accuse it of numerous war crimes. If George Bush, Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney were from Serbia it is entirely possible (and possibly desirable) that they would be in The Hague right now on trial for war crimes, torture, crimes against humanity, etc.

you mean even after the use of napalm, defoliants and all those other goodies on civilian population. But that was the war against communism, so it's perfectly OK I guess...

2 million Vietanmese died during the war, so if we are talking about numbers, then the US was a stronger case for genoicide charges than Serbia is now.

As for intent, it is something very hard to prove, unless you have discovered a dozen death camps with gas chambers and such.

I guess in every war in the previous centrury, in which one force is not overwhelmingly stronger, each side tries to exterminate as much of the enemy as possible, without much heed whether the target is a civilian or a militant.

I am not trying to justify war crimes here. I wish all these beasts could get the punishment they desrve, but the campaign to pass genocide charges against Serbia did not have this as its goal. It was meant to condemtn a whole people for the duration of this century and simply did not correspond to what was and is real.

Let's clarify a few things about Serbia's wars in the Balkans during the 1990s.

These were not simply wars for control of territory. These were wars to create ethnically clean territories that Serbia could control. Unfortunately the territories Serbia had in mind were ethnically mixed, and in many cases Serbs were not only not an absolute majority, but were in many cases a distinct minority.

This meant that the primary goal of Serbian policy was ethnic cleansing. It was not a by-product of the wars of the 1990s. Rather, it was one of the principle goals of these wars. This is where the behaviour of Serbia in the 1990s differs so dramatically from so many of the war crimes in previous conflicts that so many apologist like to cite as justification for Serbia's actions.

Would you believe me that what you wrote is pure madness to me? Serbia started wars in the Balkans to create ethnically clean territories it could control? Primary goal of Serbian policy was ethnic cleansing? Please.

Is it madness? Yes, it is madness, but when we examine the statements of the key political actors and participants, and when we look at how campaigns and battles were waged, then it becomes clear that conquering and holding territory was not enough. The territory had to be "clean". How many times did Bosnian Serb leaders discuss the necessity to cleanse the territory?

No. Your comments are madness. This Serbian policy you speak of simply never existed.

....it ain't just a river in Egypt. You are denying something that has been already clearly been determined to be a matter of fact by all reputable historians studying the matter. A clear trail of statements exists by Serbian politicians throughout the early 1990s testifying to this. |There also exists a clear pattern of behaviour by Serbian forces working towards this goal. Ethnic cleansing was not a by-product of the wars. It was the main goal.

judging by the outcome of these wars and the history of ethnic conflict in the last 50 years (NDH, Maspok, persistence of Croat nationalism during SFRJ era), I think it was the Croats who had the strongest drive to create a culturally homogenous territory (culture encompassing ethnic, religious, national identities), a pre-requisite for building a Croat nation (consult Ernest Gellner: Nationalism (1997), a good explanation. And this did in fact happen. Croatia is the most ethnically clean republic of the former Yugoslav states. Serbia is the most diverse.

Legislators may be very ordinary men,for legislation is very ordinary work,it is but final issue of million minds.

Theory,in political science,is worthless,except for purpose of
being realized in practice.

Entrance into public service and promotion in it......
can only justly be made throgh the door of merit.
And whenever any one aspires to and attain such high post,especially if by unfair and desreputable and indecent means,and is afterword found to be signal failure, he shold at once be beheaded.He is worst among public enemies.

Cit: Albert Pike Brigadni General,advokat,počasni Ph.D.
Harwardskog Univerziteta.

Mason 33 rd. Degree,Soveren Grand Commander of Scotish Rite's Southern Masonic Jurisdiction.

Izvor: Moral i Dogma

What about native americans?

Nigde tu nije bilo ni pomena od genocida. Nemoj da lupas.

Well, verdict or not, historians will focus on finding the truth of what actually happened. Unfortunately for those who feel that they are Serbs first and human beings last, the archival records has already revealed (evidence the ICJ refused to review) that official Belgrade orchestrated the genocide at Srebrenica. And according to the ICJ ruling it was genocide. And according to the ICJ ruling Serbia is and was in breach of the Convention on Genocide. This is something Serbia will have to live with forever, until such time as it undergoes a process similar to Germany. This means you and your children and your children's children will be branded by the world as genocidal until such time as you and the broader political spectrum are willing to deal with the realities of past actions. Unfortunate but true.

As for the problems being resolved... ha ha ha ha ha...

let's see... Serbia doesn't have a gov't, doesn't have a functioning constitutional court, doesn't have a functional constitution, doesn't have a functional parliament, doesn't have a functional political system, is increasingly importing as domestic production falls, the birthrate is still below replacement level, security services and oligarchs play an unusually intrusive role in policy formation, there is little civil society to speak of, most everyone I speak with -- from taxi drivers to college graduates -- wants to leave the country....

Obviously you aren't living in Serbia, or you wouldn't claim that things are that good. Why don't you return here and try and change the country for the better. Then you will discover for yourself how the people from the diaspora are treated.

This means you and your children and your children's children will be branded by the world as genocidal until such time as you and the broader political spectrum are willing to deal with the realities of past actions. Unfortunate but true.

----

Wow... That is an argument of a genius... You should be ashamed of yourself for sayting that... Which world? Maybe the world of sick propagandists and Serb-haters?
How the hell my children, or I, or a great majority of Serbs have anything to do with it... No one in the right mind could hold responsible all people for criminal action of a group of people /some past government.. I am sure that many people can put libels on everyone and everything... The past government was responsible (look to the scope of the verdict) - the new Serbian governments will adhere to the letter and spirit of the verdict of the World Court... Keeping everyone in Serbia - or Serbs outside, born and unborn, responsible for something that they did not have any involvement, wishes, is... sorry to say but mean and sick... Glad that the World Court decision is not going in that direction.

As for the problems being resolved... ha ha ha ha ha...

---

I said that the problems here are "slowly (...) getting resolved" not they are resolved. There are - unfortunately - after the years of war and failed government so many problems on the table, I don't disagree with that, but the direction is broadly looking irreversible... About the third of the problems you had mentioned will be cleared with a formation of the new government in coming weeks.

James it is completelly wrong to compare Germany and Serbia. Germany had conquered whole the Europe and made or supported genocide of Jews, Gipsies and Serbs, all over the Europe.

Of course that I am deeply and sincerely sorry for the Bosnian people, but I do not feel any guilty and responsability what Milosevic and his bastards had done in Bosnia.

Civil war in Bosnia is something absolutelly different, as Serb ethnic side supported by Milosevic did not have any intetion and plan to made a genocyde and conquer all the Bosnia. Milosevic regyme is of course guilty of agression and war attrocities, but nevertheless, Milosevic reguime was accepted and supported all the time by EU and USA until 1998, when it was finally decided in USA and EU to overthrow him, when the Congress passed the Bill and financed $200 million for that purpose. And of course, he was overthrown in 2000. If USA decided to overthrow him earlier, it could had been done earlier - for sure.

Milosevic was a dictator, and he was staying in power only by oppression and election fraud all the time of his domination. Milosevic had never had more then 30%-40% of electorate.
It is an absolute truth, and I do not agree that the rest of 60%-70% of electorate, and hundreds of thousands of Serbs who fled the contry should have been responsible and compared with Germans who conquered all the Europe and really wanted to kill all Jews in the world. Don't tell me that the Serbs are same as Germans, that they wanted to kill all the Bosnians and take all the Europe and world, that's an absolute bullshit.

You must be kidding me, I am out of Serbia as from 1991. I was a disident and heavilly beatten by Milosevic police, thousands of people as well, some were killed. Hundreds of thousands of people did not agree with Milosevic policy and we got out of the country, because we did not want to be a part of that crime. Millions of people who stayed in Serbia, were oposition to Milosevic for all the time of his domination. Are you trying to say that we are supposed to feel responsible for that what he had done with his police, secret police and special security forces in Bosnia, are you trying to say that we have collective guilty as a nation, as Germans had after II World War.
YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND, WE COULD NOT STOP HIM. THERE WAS NO WAY. The only way was the way that he was practically overthrown, by the support of Western countries in period 98-2000. EU and USA must take the part of responsability for that what happened in Bosnia, because they could had stopped him.

Of course that you are aware that Milosevic secret police assassinated Zoran Djindjic, evrybody knows it. Nothing has changed in Serbia, Milosevic secret police is still in power, that is the only reason Serbia is still in troubles. And secret police is in every political party, because of that nothing can be changed in positive direction - and that is dictatorship, you may be pretty much sure about that.

What's English for "zluradost"? "Malice" just doesn't cut it...

Of course, it is natural for one to feel joy over results of own work. But despite all the problems you mentioned, it's the fact that people are living better in April 2007 then in April 2006 and, unless something is done, they will live better still in April 2008.

a moze i "malevolence". Kad je nesto iz ciste zlobe, onda je "out of pure spite"

Ма не вреди, то све вуче на "зло" али не помиње "радост". Пре би се превело као "злонамерност".

zluradost = malicious joy

moze i 'gloating' a moze i tudjica 'schadenfreude'

Malicious joy, hateful, venomous, mean...
Zlonamernost: ill intentions

James riba smrdi od glave a ne od repa.
Ne znam da se neko znacajno trzao u UN, Amerikanci, Englezi, Rusi...svi oni koji drmaju zemaljskom kuglom, pa cak ni sami austrijanci dok je predsednik Austrije bio fasista.
Jel su oni tamo imali demokratske izbore kad su bivseg fasistu, Kurta Valdhajma, izabrali za predsednika svoje drzave?

... Kurt Valthajm je bio GENERALNI SEKRETAR UN!!!

Mungos

P.S. Na dobronamerno insistiranje mnogobrojne
blogerice Krasici, skinuo sam potpis u svom
punom i duhovitom obliku koji su vec svi primetili...

Pre godinu dana sam gledala film Tears of Sun, a pocinje citatom koji otprilike ide ovako: Dovoljno je da samo jedan covek okrene glavu pa da zlo pobedi.

... i svaki se okrece na svoju stranu.

Ako hoces da se malo vise informises o SS Sec. Gen. of UN:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Waldheim

Ali ovo moram da izdvojim:

Operation Kozara

Much historical interest has centered around Waldheim's role in Operation Kozara, a particularly ferocious campaign against Tito's partisans in the summer of 1942, in which thousands of Croatian partisans and civilians died in battle and in the concentration camps as a result of so-called cleansing operations, in the aftermath of which corpses of civilian hostages were hung on makeshift wooden gallows positioned along the road from Kostajnica to Banja Luka. According to one post-war investigator, prisoners were routinely shot within only a few hundred yards of Walheim's office.[2], and the Jasenovac concentration camp where prisoners endured the most horrific of tortures was just a few miles away. Yet decades later Waldheim would maintain "that he did not know about the murder of civilians there."[2]

Waldheim's name appears on the Wehrmacht's "honor list" of those responsible for the miltarily successful operation, and from the Croatian side, Waldheim received a silver medal with an oak leaf cluster by the fascist Ustashi leader, Ante Pavelic.

Mungos

P.S. Na dobronamerno insistiranje mnogobrojne
blogerice Krasici, skinuo sam potpis u svom
punom i duhovitom obliku koji su vec svi primetili

hvala al nebi. Nesto znam o njemu(valjda nije pogresno) a ovo da je bio GS of UN govori sve. Govori o svetu u kojem zivimo.
Kako promeniti ili pomeriti stvari nabolje za milimetar to ce ovi Veliki da vezbaju na Malima, Lovatori na Siromasima... i tako do sudnjeg dana.
Suze sam lila ceo dan kad sam pratila radio prenos S.Lukic iz Vukovara, a do pada Milosevica bila u dobrovoljnoj izolaciji. Tada sam shvatila sta je rat.Uzas za ljudsku dusu!
Za mene je svaki fizicki atak na coveka genocid.

PS Moram an posao

Tako je! Svako namerno zlo sa ciljem da unisti coveka je genocid. Genocid je kada jedna nacija iskljucuje, bukvalnim eliminisanjem, drugu naciju. Planski. Mislim da je u politickom smislu, Srbija nesposobna da uradi bilo sta planski. Sve se desavalo spontano, with the flow.

Tako je! Svako namerno zlo sa ciljem da unisti coveka je genocid. Genocid je kada jedna nacija iskljucuje, bukvalnim eliminisanjem, drugu naciju. Planski. Mislim da je u politickom smislu, Srbija nesposobna da uradi bilo sta planski.

Tako je. Moj otac tu situaciju zove "genocid iz nehata".

je odgovorio kao oni Skorpioni na zavrsnom izlaganju: bio sam ali nisam pucao!
Poznavala sam mamu od mog prijatelja, kozarsko dete odrasla u sirotistu. Cudom prezivela.

Jezivo smrdi, ne mora ni usta da otvori!

Mungos

P.S. Na dobronamerno insistiranje mnogobrojne
blogerice Krasici, skinuo sam potpis u svom
punom i duhovitom obliku koji su vec svi primetili...

Inteligentan covek. Kako je samo uspeo da isproziva sve DSS-ovce na blogu.

...svako ko ima kritican komentar je DSS-ovac? Nema sta, on je inteligentan, ali vi ste apsolutno genijalni.

Mungose, ne daj potpis! Meni su moj potpis ukinulu, mučki i bez prava žalbe...

To say that "your children and your children's children will be branded by the world as genocidal," is just simply pathetic. When I read the mandate of "the International Crisis Group," supposedly it is "to prevent and resolve deadly conflict." How do comments of this nature sit with the goal of your employer, James?

Speaking of which, in light of what happened in March 2004, do you consider yourself a failure?

I'm one of those who do not ever forget about what happened in Srebrenica, who do think there was a genocide there, who think it's a must for the citizens of Serbia to face it and acknowledge it, once and for all... The sooner, the better.
And I'm sick and tired of all the apologetics for nationalism and chauvinism in Serbia.

However:

There isn't such a thing as "genocidal nation". The term itself has been coined by and for the use of those politicians who find it easier to express their opinions on other countries' policies by labeling entire nations.
Oooops! Isn't it George W. Bush describing Iran as a "suicidal nation" at this very moment? How (in)convenient!

Is it possible that it's never occured to you that your children and your children's children might just as well be treated guilty some day, for everything the government of their country is doing today?

Personally, I disagree with whoever says that the problems in Serbia are being resolved. I don't see any improvement here, only new reasons to worry.

But that sinister laugh, James...

First off, be careful - you might choke yourself! =P
Secondly, it's not a nice thing to do. Bad manners. No-no.
And thirdly, that specific line in your comment made me wonder if there was a good intention and any sincerety in what you wrote, particularly in the following words: "Unfortunate but true".

=(
It's a shame, as I thought the article was good and I agree on many points... But now that I've read your comments, I'm no longer sure if I actually got the point in the first place.

pomislila sam Boze, da li je moguce da ce se Srbija izvuci posle svega u cemu je ucestvovala?!
Naravno da nije. Pored bombardovanja ostalo je jos frustracija, nesvesti, besa, neodgovornosti ...
Kad li ce ozdraviti?
Znam da zavisi samo od gradjana ove drzave ali to ce ici polako jer nema stvarne volje. Mi kao jedinke, nepovezani sistemom, institucijama smo nemocne.

What a brilliant mind you've got Mr. Tarkovski.

So you would like me to go home? Well, whenever I hear people say that, it makes me want to stay even longer... iz inata...

A ja vam mister James zelim bas da ovde ostanete zauvek i da radite to sto radite, kod istih poslodavaca. A kako vas placaju po ucinku mocicete sebi da "priustite" i srpski standard od 300 evra mesecno, doduse ako se malo vise potrudite :). Za prosecnog amera vise nego zadovoljavajuce. Zamislite kako bi vam bilo da ste ceo zivot proveli negde na Midwest-u. Ovo vam nekako dodje ko premija.

You forgot that you are guilty for you are, while you should aren't.

Translate THAT! ;)

koji je vaš predlog?

thanks for providing us with a clear explanation of what you really meant to say! I'm not being sarcastic, honestly. I'm being serious.

As for the latest comment, I agree on everything you wrote there, whereas I didn't agree on some points of your previous comments and apparently I didn't like the way (and the 'tone') you presented them.
My apologies if I was rude.

I still hope, though, that you don't forget about what is being done today (what was done yesterday and will be done tomorrow)by the government of your own country, in your name, and that you're doing your best to support all the activists in their protests against all the wrong decisions and actions of the US government.

Da nisu po tebi ameri mozda krivi zato sto se iracani ubijaju medjusobno??

По мени јесу. Знали су шта ће се десити ако се Садам склони са власти, и ипак су га склонили.

All those angry reactions are directed to you James, not to the war crimes, Bosnians, Albanians... If your name was Salih Muslimovic, a 17 year old orphan from Srebrenica, the tone would be very different. It is the hypocrisy of "dusebriznik" from the west, the self righteous seeker of justice, that ticks off people.

1. Treat us as humans, and you will get a human reaction on the war crimes. Keep talking to us as inhumane, war mongering, genocidal mob and you will have a violent response, just as if you really talked to inhumane, war mongering... Refer to "Expectancy Theory" by Victor Vroom and modify it a little bit.

2. Comparison with other tragedies is only to make us feel better and not uniquely inhumane for what happened in 1990's (a fact that you and people like you do not fail to remind us on a daily basis)

3. Children should not bear blame on anything their parents did. If you claim that, you are not very different from the instigators of the war crimes. Don't forget that Serbian war crimes during 1990's came as a reaction to WW2 war crimes committed against Serbs in Bosnia & Croatia. If anyone taught those people that the children of WW2 war criminals were not guilty...

4. Serbia is a factor of instability because it is economically underdeveloped, not because of war crimes committed over 10 years ago. Do not expect catharsis from hungry people whose lives are in disarray. Germans had their catharsis when Willy Brandt knelt in Warsaw to apologize for the genocide. That happened in December 1970, 25 years after the end of WW2, when Western Germany was an economic superpower with hundreds of billions of dollars invested in it in the meantime.

I agree with you that children should not bear the blame for the sins of their parents. However, in life humans tend to do exactly that. Think how many persons were killed during the 1990s because they were "Turks", even though the real Turks had left Bosnia more than 115 years earlier, or because they were "Ustase" or "Cetniks", even though the real Ustase and Cetniks were now pensioners or dead. And think how many of the crimes committed on all sides during the war occurred because people blamed the children for the sins of the parents. It is precisely because of human tendencies to blame children for the sins of their parents that Serbia (and other countries in the region) need to face up to the reality of what was done during the 1990s.

As for your argument about economic determinism, I disagree. There are lots of impoverished countries that are not factors of instability or a danger to their neighbours. What makes Serbia a factor for continuing instability is the degree to which the pan-Serbian idea continues to grip many of Serbia's politicians and voters, as seen in the strong showing by the SRS, SPS and DSS. Economic development alone will not erase those attitudes. It didn't succeed in erasing those attitudes under Tito's Yugoslavia. Germany was a success because it was forced to de-Nazify and because it was also forced to confront its past crimes through the Nuremberg War Crimes Trials and through a massive education program. And that all happened before the German economy took off.

...should leave the children out of any discussion. Don't give it legitimacy. Responsibility lies on the ones who committed/instigated the crimes and the lesser extent to the ones who elected them/did nothing about to prevent/ did not protest/ silently supported them. My arguments was precisely the same thing you are saying; in the 1990's people went for each other's throats calling them the WW2 names (ustasa, balija, cetnik...)

As for economic development and factor of instability, here is where we disagree. I personally do not think that Serbia is a threat to the region. The popularity of SRS & SPS comes from "social populism" ("3 dinars for loaf of bread" - campaign promisses) and costant corruption talk - all internal issues. Majority of their popularity does not come from nationalism (I am not denying that some of it comes from there).
Take away the unemployment & poverty, and you take away SRS' message. Economic development is not the only factor, I agree, but the one that will best succeed.

By the way, as for Germany, even in 1970, 48% of them were against what Willy Brandt did. After the WW2 they were occupied people so they could not voice their opinion. That is why you believe that "de-nazification" worked. It did not until they became middle class society. It is more likely that you can have a civilized conversation about war crimes with Serbs who have jobs & comfortable lives. It gets increasingly more difficult down the economic ladder you go.

Constant reminders and conditioning the economic development on war crimes are actually counter productive to achieve what you want to achieve - the genuine remorse for what happened in the 1990s'.

Finally, if my understanding serves me correctly, your goal is to denazify Serbia. In other words you want to change the behavior of the Serbs. This can happen in 2 ways:
1.Occupy them and force them to change (works only superficially, actually you aggravate the situation doing that)
2.Motivate them to change – this seems to be your only recourse

There are only 2 known motivators in the world:
STICK & THE CARROT

Good recipe to de-nazify Serbia:
5 parts of economic opportunity (Carrot)
2 parts of education (soft stick)
1 part of guilt & shame (stick)
1 part of justice (war crimes tribunal - stick)
½ a part of praise for good Serbs (carrot)

Your recipe to de-nazify Serbia:
Shove as much guilt & shame, tribunals & courts down their throat until they all attempt to commit collective suicide (Stick, stick, stick & even bigger stick). Then and there, on the brink of the abyss, grab their hand and tell them: “It is ok, it is ok, it happens, but don’t do it again”
I appeal to your Americanism, to the best things they teach little Americans, and that is to be practical, pro-active, and constructive, to promote the good recipe. However if your only goal is to piss off as many people as you can, then you lived far too long in the Balkans.

If you really want to help, promoting the two pronged approach would work:
1. Make the politics unprofitable in Serbia – you want to remove the main motivator for scum to run for office. After all was said and done in the 90’s, the main goal of the leaders of the warring parties was to get rich quickly.
2. Make their populist message less effective – people with their lives together (middle class people) are less affected by the rallying cries of thugs who use them to get rich. Nationalism was just one of those rallying cries, a symptom of a disease, not the cause. Next time it may be socialism (like Hugo Chavez), corruption, etc.
Stop treating the symptom and treat the cause.
Good luck James!

Seriously. I don't buy that "the pan-Serbian idea continues to grip many of Serbia's politicians and voters", but for the sake of argument, let's say that it's true.

Pan-Croatian idea also grips practically all Croatian politicians and voters. Unlike pan-Serbian idea, pan-Croatian idea is actually implemented, through a program of massive ethnic cleansing. Yet it somehow doesn't create instability in the Balkans. Pan-Albanian idea is the only ideology on Albanian political scene. It is in the process of being implemented, through violence, terrorism, and again, massive ethnic cleansing. Yet it, too, doesn't create instability in the Balkans. I simply don't see how is that possible.

This pan-Serbian idea refers to a concept that all territories inhabited by Serbs should be in Serbia. OK. But currently, all territories inhabited by Croats are in Croatia, and then some, including territories which were never inhabited by Croats (even if you would subscribe to Croatian history, not for centuries). This pan-Croatian idea apparently is nothing bad, or at least I never heard anyone saying that it is bad. Yet I oftenly hear that pan-Serbian idea is bad. Why?

Poenta je u tome sto ta tvoja izmisljena Veliko-Hrvatska demagogija ne podrazumeva teritorije koje nisu sastavni deo Hrvatske. Srbi su hteli teritorije drugih drzava.

Херцег-Босна је у саставу Хрватске? Човек научи нешто ново сваки дан...

Могао бих се сложити да су РСК и РС друге државе, али оне су насељене Србима, који својевољно желе да се прикључе Србији.

It isn't a bad thing, provided it doesn't start encroaching on other people's territory.

How is territory of, say, RSK, other people's territory?

OK James,
1. I am a human first, European the second, citizen of Serbia the third, Serb the fourth (no need to go further here)
2. I do not compare the 1990s to other tragedies or massacres in order to downplay or justify them, but sometimes I mention them in order not to be forgotten
3. with this I have a problem: I don't know WHAT to admit. I wasn't there. I heare people say this and that - but I am nor a spy neither in the goverment, I don`t have facts, I don't know facts, I've been lied by the media so long that I most certainly don't believe them, I've been lied by politcians, I've been bombed by those whom I believed- so I don't believe them either, I simply asked you earlier - why should I believe more some people I don`t even know - then the official court ?
Please, give mi an answer on that.
4. with this I agree

Dear James,

I agree with the comments of Oya, Mr. Bean and Vlad-Man, and also I would like to add one strong evidence more, that Serbia did not comit genocide, and should not be compared to Germany at all and Serbs should not be marked as genocidal nation. There is an area in southwest of Serbia called Sandzak, populated with hundrerds of thousands of Bosnian Muslims. Nobody was killed, there was no war and there was not ethnic cleansing. So, your comparison is wrong.

II WW is still not finished in peoples mind in ex Yugoslavia, you got to be aware of it. There are still lot of problem to be solved, I sincerelly hope without arms.

James, I am not trying here to justify, downplay and compare war crimes of Serb side - I am really sorry for Bosnian civilians, but I am trying to explain here that Serbia did not comit genocide, and especially that Serbs are not genocidal people and that collective guilt that you suggested is absolutelly wrong.

In II WW there was a genocide comitted on Serbs by Germany and NDH, and that is actually the key answer why
the war happened in Yugoslavia in 90's. I am not trying to justify Milosevic - who is to be blamed with his forces for the war and war crimes. But that genocide that actually occured in the period 41-45, instigated a hysteria in parts of Serbian nation - that the genocide will happen again, especially after Tudjman showed relation to Ustasa emigration and put a symbol of NDH (sahovnica) to the flag of Croatia.

I will tell you something else my friend James, my wife is of Croation nationality, I am not nationalist and I have never been. My opinion is that we are all same nation in Yugoslavia, Serbs, Croats, Bosnians and Montenegrians as our maternal language is absolutelly the same.

Are you talking to me :))?

njemacki sezdesetosmasi su se osramotili ovih godina, prodali i sebe i ideale,... ali, sorry, nisam htjela o njima.

To njemacko suocavanje s prosloscu je tek zagrebano tih ´68., ´69. Ali onako stidljivo. Tu se vec zakuhavalo i definitivno pripremila pozornica za RAF (Rote Armee Fraktion, njemacki pandan talijanskim Brigade Rosse) i lijevi terorizam.

I dan danas, bas ovih mjeseci, kada se javno vode polemike oko prijevremenog pustanja na slobodu zadnjih RAFovaca (4 kom. josh), vlada generalna histerija i povici da se ti isti trebaju javno pokajati za ucinjeno. S druge strane, tek tu i tamo, u malom provjerenom krugu ljudi, odvaze se neki da kazu kako je teror ´70tih u Njemackoj DIREKTNA posljedica NEsuocavanja s vlastitom nacistickom prosloscu. Gdje su pitanja: "Tata/djede, sta si radio za vrijeme rata?" i dalje ostajala neodgovorena, a unutrasnja frustracija i otpor tadasnje mlade generacije establishmentu rastao. I onda se kod onih "najzescih" kanalizirao kroz (lijevi) teror...

Naveo sam primer šezdesetosmaške generacije u Nemačkoj samo da bih istakao koliko je dugo trajalo dok se tamo javio neko ko je stvarno postavio neprijatna pitanja. O svemu ostalom vezanom za nemačku i drugu 1968. ne bih ovim povodom, osim da nema opravdanja ni za kakav pa ni levi terorizam.

Za terorizam i nasilje svake vrste nema opravdanja. Ja sam to spominjala kao uzrocno-posljedicnu vezu, koja se rado presucuje, jer je umijesanost vecine gradjana nacisticke Njemacke u zlocine pocinjene u njihovo ime i dalje (asesdesetih i sedamdesetih jos i vise) prilican tabu.

Taj dugi period koji je trebao proci da bi se uopce progovorilo o nacistickim zlocinima treba imati na umu kada se zahtijeva da se o zlocinima na Balkanu progovori zborno i bez (samo-)refleksije. Nesto mozemo nauciti iz gresaka, ali i uspjeha drugih.

E dobro, u pravu si svetionice, samo meni je malo problem da me stave u isti kos kao i sve ostale ljude iz Srbije, sto je ok kada imas neku ravnomernu raspodelu oko "prosecnog" gradjanina pa mozes da na osnovu tog proseka izvodis zakljucke.

Ipak, postoje dve stvari,posledicno vezane, usled kojih prosto ne mogu da prihvatim da se tag genocid zalepi na celu drzavu. Najpre, veliki deo naroda koji je '96/7, '00 maltretirao svoju obucu i zapostavljao normalne zivote radi toga da makne onoga koga je makao, uspeo je da odnese pobedu nad ostalim zbirom pasivnih, nerazumnih i zlikovaca.

Shodno jasnom raslojenju na dve grupe, od kojih je jedna u pocetku imala nadmoc i ugrozavala drugu, da bi potom bila porazena (mada ne spucana onoliko koliko bih ja to zeleo (posebno kategorija zlikovci)), to da je Srbija kao celina pocinila genocid je neprihvatljivo i odlicno se poklapa sa cuvenom presudom (iako su pravni razlozi za presudu mozda drugaciji).

Mada, pricati o ovako uzasnim stvarima promatrajuci ih hladnokrvno deluje gnusno i vampirski. Ne znam kako ljudi kojima je ovo profesionalna tema mogu da ostanu ljudska bica. Mora da svi odreda prolupate posle nekog vremena. OverNout

Nije "Srbija kao celina" počinila genocid. Kako nekoliko miliona ljudi može da počini genocid? Genocid su počinili državni organi, Republike Srpske, a koji su bili u vezi s organima Republike Srbije i SRJ. Kakvoj i kolikoj, upravo to pita James. Na stranu suđenje, dobro, izmakli smo maču stobilionske odštete koju ni tvoji i moji unuci ne bi mogli otplatiti, ali šta ćemo s političkom i moralnom odgovornošću? Tu odgovornost ima "Srbija kao celina" - ima odgovornost da svi koji su počinili genocid odgovaraju, da se politika zločina osudi i potpuno i trajno napusti, da niko u Srbiji ne može braniti ni minimizirati zločin i da celokupna društvena klima i javni diskurs daju osnove za veru da se tako nešto nikad više neće ponoviti.

Za početak, šta ćemo sa obavezom izručenja osumnjičenih? Pretpostavljam da ne glasaš za stranke koje su protiv saradnje s Hagom, pa te to ni ne pitam. Idemo dalje. Šta radiš kad vidiš sliku Ratka Mladića na zidu kafane ili prodavnice? Business as usual? Ili prosto izađeš napolje? Ili skreneš pažnju vlasniku da odmah skida tog zlikovca, ako misli da mu ikad ponovo uđeš u radnju? Kupuješ li tabloide koji promovišu ratne zločince? Kupuješ li muziku, ideš li na koncerte ljudi koji to rade? Jesi li za suđenje onima koji skrivaju Mladića, i za suđenje onima koji skrivaju one koji skrivaju i tako dalje sve dok god treba i koliko treba?

..Ima nas mnogo koji smo cepali cipele od '90-2000te...a jos uvek ispastamo zbog zlocinaca protiv kojih smo se borili tolike godine...Ceca za vize ne ceka bas kao ni Natasa Kandic koja trazi da se pregovori sa Srbijom ne nastave zbog onoga sto je radio Cecin muz...Svi ovi zlocinci sto su sad u zatvoru i kojima se sudi imali su sengen bez problema...malo ubijali a malo bili turisti u EU...a mnogi su imali i diplomatske pasose kao radnici DB......

ili su imali pasose "neprijateljskih" drzava s kojima su slobodno setali po svijetu (mislim na Legiju i njegove 2, bijase?, hrvatske putovnice).