B92 Blog

Interesting take on the situation even though I believe that this is much bigger than Kostunica or his political future. Anyway, maybe shouting the names of war criminals will change Serbia’s fortunes. It seems to work for Kosovo Albanians. They are lead by known war criminals and drug dealers and yet they are loved by US and UK politicians. Maybe because they are of the same sort, or maybe UK and US politicians do not understand who they are. One thing is certain, Kosovo is not a democratic society and its economy is based on drug smuggling and white slavery. That is what is so sad about today’s celebration or demolition.

I don't have any reservation about Taci. I am saying that he is a war criminal. With respect to Rugova, I agree. He was a moderate who was fighting for the rights of Kosovo Albanians. I believe that his fight was justified. Milosevic is responsible for the rise of KLA because he used unnecessary force to stop several bandits from killing civilians. If he wanted to get rid of them he could’ve done that much smarter.
I know that this is Milosevic’s legacy, but he was not alone. He had a lot of help from the west.

I agree. There is plenty of blame to go around.

you got it all wrong hugh.. it was never important who ruled serbia in late '90.. it is just well know american tactics to attack country and stay there forever.. like in germany, japan, korea, iraq..

Milosevic's policies in Kosovo led to the rise of the KLA

Interesting, very interesting.... Hugh, give me an honest answer. Whose polices in Kosovo lead to the rise of Milosevic? (1950-1990).

Dunno if you've been here during the '99 Merciful Angel. Your assumptions coincide with the official US ones back then, regarding Milosevic. I think you're wrong, simply because Kostunica has said (quite bluntly) what most of Serbia feels. We're sick and tired of being pushed around by US in particular, and whereas during the bombing there was some vague pretext (again unlawful), this time there's nothing to justify the plain bullying of a sovereign country.
There is one much more important difference, however - Russia is no longer run by a pissed beggar. There's more than one king-maker now.

US gouvernment should be happy with Kostunica because since 5 oct 2000 he has faithfully playing a Troyan horse i.e. deflecting voters from Serb radical party.
If it was not for him and his phony DSS radicals would be in power a long time ago.
Actually, like in 2000, US is probably helping him even now behind the scene.

This is not just "doing what you're told to", this is a blatant breach of international law. I don't think much of Kostunica, but the fact is that the law is on his side this time, and if we start breaking it now, we'll find ourselves back in the stone age at some point.

Even if we agree that there was a genocide in Kosovo during the 90's, and that Kosovo has the moral right to declare independance, the fact remains that it is against the law. Fifty years from now, with new politicians in place, nobody will remember why was the independence granted, they'll know only that a precedent was made and the law was broken. Other cases will follow in the same pattern, and I bet you US and EU will be the ones to suffer the most.

One of the more peculiar things about this shrinking country of Serbia is the honest concern for the well-being of the entire world that most of the inhabitants exhibit with alarming frequency. A normal person might think that with everything on our collective plate at this point in time, people would be concerned primarily for them selves. But that's why Serbia is not just another country but a heavenly nation closest and dearest to the heart of god (who we happen to know is a god of justice; says so in the damn hymn). Even when in midst of such dire circumstances, the Serbians are concerned only for how this will affect the rest of the world. We care not for our own well-being, it's the entire rest of the world that might suffer more than we and it is our duty to share our concerns.

Obraz, Dveri, Nomokanon and other far right religious nationalist health food organizations (we just might be the only country in the world which successfully combined protests against imperialism and unhealthy McDonald's food) are expected to send their aid packages to countries most threatened - Spain, UK and Cyprus are to be included in the first batch, but the US might be covered in the second batch because of the rising concern of California declaring independence from the rest of the union and joining hands with Mexico. Most of the blame for California joining the union in the first place is placed on terrorist known only as Zorro and organized burning of his pictures on public squares is underway.

We can debate this all night long and it still won't change the fact that the independence of Kosovo is unlawful. For all the hipocrisy of Kostunica (a hipocritical politician?!) there can be no justification for breaking the law. I will not be dragged into a discussion whether the world is fair, should the law be changed and whether Kostunica is honest or not (well, that's an easy one).
Bottom line is - law is equal to all, and it should be obeyed.

Dawngreeter, in spite of all your cinicism, you've said nothing.

Sarcasm, my dear Watson. The word you're looking for is sarcasm.

That's one thing we certainly agree on.

well.. someone is taking part of your land and you should smile about it??? is that what you would do mr. griffits?

They didn’t take it from us? How do you call three months of NATO bombing in 1999?? Friendly persuadation?!?

west is to blame for bosnia. americans the most, to be more specific. all western diplomats in past couple of years or more said it was bad deccision to recognize bosnia in 1992 without agreement between three nations who lived there. second thing considering your previous mentioning of northern ireland. when catholics in first decade of 20th century, try to use force to rejoin with republic of ireland, british crown sent army to deal with it. and british army is still in northern ireland, 100 years after that.. when we sent our army to deal with same problem in kosovo, NATO send their forces to stop it. I call it double standards. and there are a dozen of provinces in europe where national minority are majority. that doesnt mean that they can declare independance based on fact of bigger number. that has nothing to do with international law.

Dear codex...

Kosovo's independence doesn't really come out of the blue as it seems from your post. If Serbia would have had the decency to recognise the bare existence of Albanians in the south, you might have had at least some claim to it. Kosovans have been trampled upon since the end of the WWII (to say the least), denied their right to use their language, have a say in any kind of government, etc. Their struggle started a long time ago, and you guys had 9 years to prepare for what came on Feb. 17th.

And by the way, when was it last time any of you went to Kosovo? And when was it last time you really cared for the well-being of Kosovo Serbs? Or Bosnian Serbs, for that matter? From what I experienced, Bosnian Serbs are "pigs" for you and Kosovo Serbs are "gypsies"...

I don't know why you're complaining... it's not like you would have been ready to give 20% of power-sharing to Albanians if they decided to, by some kind of a wonder, stay a part of Serbia.

Cheers!

Stupidity. Once the slavery was legal. Was it ethical too? We mistreated Siptari, we shove all of them, women and children over the border. How on earth do you expect obey our goverment now when we didn't change at all.

I really wanted to stay out of this argument, but I couldn't help it after reading your post, Aida.

Don't know what you've experienced, but you're the only person I've ever heard calling those people pigs and gippos. It's just plain malicious, as is the rest of your post. The "20% of power" argument fails in face of the complete autonomy that Serbia has offered. It's a lie that they didn't have the right to use their own language, cos both nations living there are bilingual, and so are the schools and university. Not even Albanians were complaining about that! As for recognition of their existance - well, a good start would be not refusing to participate in census polls. Even today, nobody actually knows how many Albanians there are in Kosovo. 20yrs ago there were just bellow 2mil people living there, whereas now CNN claims that there are 3mil Albanians there.

For once, Serbia holds the moral ground firmly, and all the false arguments and recent history lessons won't make this "independance" legal.

badreligion,

Please reread my post a few times to understand the sentence I wrote about pigs and gypsies.

The bilingualism you are mentioning surely existed, if you consider the fact that Albanians had to know Serbian, but Serbs didn't necessarily need to know Albanian... you'll find this supported by the fact that almost every Albanian speaks Serbian, and very few Serbs speak Albanian.

As for recognition of their existance - well, a good start would be not refusing to participate in census polls.

You mean like Serbs nowadays refuse to participate in any kind of elections, etc. in Kosovo... Serbia should and could have done better in attracting Albanians to participate... Kosovans now have to try and do a better job regarding the same thing with Serbs in Kosovo.

UN estimates that about 2 mil. people live in Kosovo, 90% Albanians, roughly 5% Serbs and 5% "Others"...

And finally, I totally disagree with you that Serbia holds the moral ground... I don't see any basis for that whatsoever...


Hugh, I got into the trap.... shit! :-)

Your sentence regarding the pigs and gypsies is nothing but a personal, biased opinion, with which no Serbian would agree. I wonder what kind of experience would make you think of something like that. Still, believe what you want, that's your right.
However, your right is not to change the facts, and the facts are: Albanians were not banned from studying in their native language; Serbia has offered Kosovo everything short of a seat in UN - which is not going to happen anyway, even now; and most importantly THE SECESSION IS ILLEGAL.

That's what gives Serbia the moral ground. What has happened is nothing short of a robbery at a gunpoint.

Hugh Griffiths

Well, I guess we will have to agree that we disagree then. Far better that than violence on the streets.

If you don't mind me asking what are your qualifications with respect to the international law? Any formal education or something ? I see many legal minds from all over the world claiming that the independence of Kosovo is not legal while you think there is something to argue about. Of course that doesn't surprise me because in the western civilizations anything can be debated. However, let us debate about this...

Resolution 1244, Annex 1, ...

A political process towards the establishment of an interim political framework agreement providing for a substantial self-government for Kosovo, taking full account of the Rambouillet accords and the principles of sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the other countries of the region, and the demilitarization of the KLA;

Hugh Griffiths

The bombing was to get the MUP, army and paramilitaries out of Kosovo. Unfortunately the lesson of Bosnia had been learnt which was that Milosevic only backed down when his violence was met by violence. And even more unfortunately, ordinary, innocent people suffered as a result of that, as they had done since Slobo and slime came to power.

I suggest you read Mr. Clinton's memoirs and pay particular attention to a paragraph in which he explains why Serbia was bombed. He has a little bit different opinion but I guess you know better than him...

dear aida,
your remarks are silly. was i ever in kosovo or what names I call my compatriots from kosovo or bosnia has nothing to do with international law and order. so i repeat it just one more time for the sake of mr. griffiths and yours if you want: " there are a dozen of provinces in europe where national minority are majority. that doesnt mean that they can declare independance based on fact of bigger number. that has nothing to do with international law....

Hugh Griffiths

ah yes, the trap! Beware of engaging in discussion with people whom we can charitably describe as being subject to too much propaganda for too long. Some tough lovin' needed here, clearly.

It's sad that you have to resort to that old excuse for the lack of argument. God forbid you might be the subject to a different kind of propaganda... Pathetic.

br,

Not my

personal, biased opinion, with which no Serbian would agree

, but rather something I heard from quite a few Serbs in Belgrade (when they were speaking unofficially). Anyway, as I am a reasonable person, I will give in and say that, of course, those people don't represent every single Serb in Serbia. (btw. Slobodan Milosevic called Bosnian Serbs "pigs"... re-check that)

However, your right is not to change the facts, and the facts are: Albanians were not banned from studying in their native language; Serbia has offered Kosovo everything short of a seat in UN - which is not going to happen anyway, even now;

Check your facts please. Serbia obviously hasn't offered Albanians the right to self-determination, because they would have used that one a long time ago.

and most importantly THE SECESSION IS ILLEGAL.

I studied English literature, not international law, so my argumentation for the legality or illegality of independence would probably be pointless.

What has happened is nothing short of a robbery at a gunpoint.

Again, Serbs had nine (9) years to say farewell to Kosovo. The independence certainly didn't come as a surprise, and even more certainly not at a gunpoint. Why would you have problems with having to carry a passport in order to be able to see Serbian monasteries in Kosovo? Most religious people need visas to go to Jerusalem to see the Church of the Holy Sepulcher or to Bethlehem to see the Nativity Church, and they don't have a problem with that... (Am I seriously pushing the sensitive button here?).

QUOTE: ah yes, the trap! Beware of engaging in discussion with people whom we can charitably describe as being subject to too much propaganda for too long. Some tough lovin' needed here, clearly.

you can't be serious mr. griffiths??!!!!

Yeah, whatever... I'm tired of trying to explain the obvious.
Either I'm mad or the world's gone crazy. Gloat, you won, f***ing hurrah, another beggar on the world's stage, just do let me know what you think when your countries (whatever they may be) start sending your boys all over the world to try and quell some obscure rebellions (righteous or not) that Kosovo will inspire for sure.

I give up. If you're really a Palestinian, you should, as well. After all, you had many more years to say farewell...

br,

What is obvious to you, does not necessarily represent reality or truth that you consider to be untrue.

And it's definitely not about winning or gloating... I thought blogging is generally useful for exchange of opinions that don't necessarily always have to agree with each other. I respect your opinion because I see where it comes from, I just don't agree with it. Additionally, maybe a few years of actually living in Kosovo (which I consider my advantage over you) give me a better understanding of Albanian reasoning behind their desire for independence.

I am not Palestinian (and let's not start on Palestine, it's a totally different shoe than Kosovo... a discussion you definitely DON'T want to start with me).

Too late for that, I'm afraid (I mean engaging in discussion...)... Loads of tough lovin'... loads and loads!

Hugh,

www.diakonia.se/ihl

It's about Palestine, but it's IHL... a really good site, enjoy!

AidaPalestine

I am not Palestinian (and let's not start on Palestine, it's a totally different shoe than Kosovo... a discussion you definitely DON'T want to start with me).

As a matter of fact, some 7 years of my life I've been living amongst the Arabs - in Q8, UAE and Iraq, and I feel quite sympathetic towards the Palestinians, as 3 of my Palestinian mates could tell you. If, for nothing else, then because the international law (humanitarian or otherwise, Hugh), doesn't work there either.

Hugh Griffiths

I am deadly serious.

I worked in Kosovo in 1999 and 2000 for something called the war crime trauma unit. So as much as I appreciate my friends in Belgrade, the Kosovars are real individuals to me, too, not simply objects demonised by media outlets intent on portraying them as drug dealers etc.

And as far as international law goes, my interest is in international humanitarian law. And before Kostunica gets taken seriously while whining about "illegality" and "violence" he'll have to arrest those hundreds of persons responsible for far more serious, non-debatable violations of rights, and not just those caught on video acquired by courageous human rights activists.

So what are your qualifications ? B.A. in Psychology, Pol. Sci, ? We all have different interests but I see you are willing to "argue" about the international law so I was just wondering what is your expertise in that field?

Hugh Griffiths

ah yes, the trap! Beware of engaging in discussion with people whom we can charitably describe as being subject to too much propaganda for too long. Some tough lovin' needed here, clearly.

So what are you referring to precisely ? Your arguments are rather weak. I would have expected that you, like Albanians and their legal experts paid by drug money (and yes we can debate about that too) , would claim that 1244 does not guarantee integrity of Serbia but country which disappeared once Montenegro separated and then we could have discussed about UN Charter and procedures for secession. But your answer (while rhetorically nice) is rather empty in essence.

As for your comment about Jerusalem. I had an opportunity to visit it (without visa) and I can assure that Palestinians do not appreciate the fact that the Dome of Rock is controlled by Israel. Why don't you go to Gaza and try to explain to them that it is not bad that they need visa to visit Jerusalem :) Also I would be very interested in seeing your attempts to explain that point to one of my Egyptian and/or Iranian students....

But seriously now anything can be debated but...if you were at all familiar with SFRJ constitution you would know that all secessions were ILLEGAL since any type of secession required (under SFRJ constitution) consensus between all the nations. I also know that consensus was very popular in communist countries and rarely (almost never needed/required in the west) but. .. that was THE LAW which every single nation/nationality in SFRJ agreed to. Once you start making precedents it never stops. And once you start claiming that something is applicable only to a particular situation and cannot be use anywhere else you will run into mess... I could give you an example from Qur'an with that particular problem :) But I am not sure if you would be interested...I will just point to surah 9.5 and hadiths corresponding to that :) (related to particular event/time vs. general and the mess that came out of that)

Hugh -- great, I agree.

By the same token, do:

Serbs in BiH have the right to secede?
Ossetians from Georgia?
Abkhaz from Georgia
Chechens from Russia?
Basqs from Spain?
Turks from Cyprus?
Kurds from Turkey?

Don't give me bullshit. Plain Yes or No? Can you do it?

if you consider the fact that Albanians had to know Serbian, but Serbs didn't necessarily need to know Albanian

It is certainly an interesting new concept in the human rights lawt. It is not sufficient, it seems, if the majority grants full scope of rights to minorities (like full use of their own language), but perhaps majority must now learn minorities' languages as well, in order not to offend minorities?

So every Serb in Vojvodina should now learn Hungarian and Slovakian?
OOORRRR every American in California, as of tomorrow my dear AIda MUST START LEARNING SPANISH???

Yes, I love it!!!

you must be a brilliant master of the human rights law. Are u coming to HR council in Geneva in March? Perhaps you deliver your statement there.

ah yes, the trap! Beware of engaging in discussion with people whom we can charitably describe as being subject to too much propaganda for too long. Some tough lovin' needed here, clearly.

...and, yes, here we are, my favorite. if no substance to provide in response, accuse the other party of being brainwashed...

my interest is in international humanitarian law

Don't start it. You wanna talk to me about Geneva 1945 Conventions and treatment of civilians and POWs? Ok... how about Guantanamo, as a start? Abu Graib? go on, man....
you worked for 'something' you say. Exactly. 'Some thing' you are....

For all his failures Kostunica is one of the few politicians who tries to keep to his own direction somewhere in the middle. That doesn't make him popualr in polarizing country. But I doubt that Serbia will be better off without him.

Nobody will miss Kostunica if he goes...

For all his failures Kostunica is one of the few politicians who tries to keep to his own direction somewhere in the middle. That doesn't make him popualr in polarizing country. But I doubt that Serbia will be better off without him.

I am really surprised that you think he is in the middle. He is practically a radical!
I haven't noticed any sign of an independent course in his political actions. His only trouble with opening-up to this miserable nation is the sweet taste of leadership. He may lack temper for the local taste but he is not lacking viciousness at all. Seriously, isn't his fascinating stubborn self-sufficiency without a decent vision, the key to every good dictator?

If I abstract from all those concerns for a moment, one thing is sure: if he disappeared today, there is only one reason why I would remember him well - Zoran Djindjic.

I wish but I can hardly take an opinion (hm it is not even an opinion but rage) of few disturbed young fellas as something relevant. As you can see from this thread, it is not Voja's fault but McDonalds as always.

Hi to all;

I am new in this forum or blog but let me introduce myself. I am an american living and working is Serbia. I have come to love and respect this country and its citizens (especially my wife ;-) ). Since coming here I have been met with notthing but openness and friendship. Before coming to Serbia I lived in Germany and was never met there in this manner. My children (3 of them) are German / American and my oldest son has been here and can not wait to return.

Even though the US and other countries bombed the hell out of this country I have never experienced any form of discrimation or hate towards me.

As to the statements that have been writen here I can only say that I agree that if the initial talks had been done properly and BOTH sides met agreement that the move for independence would have been legal. However, this was not the case. The Albanians in Kosovo were PROMISED something that gave them no reason to talk with Serbian Officials. This is one reason that I can only say that "I am almost embarrished to say I am american"! But I am very proud to say I am TEXAN!!

I do not see what is to be gained out of recalling the Ambassadors or blocking political relations. Nor can I understand it when hooligans attack private companies and destroy Serbian property and endanger their own people and their children. This brings nothing but a bad image and does not show what I have learned as true Serbian Culture. The same hooligans that damage property and endanger lives also wear Nike and Addidas, Levi jeans and other note worthy clothing!!! I wish they could MAKE UP THEIR MINDS!!! But Kids will be Kids.

I do not support the move to Independence in this manner nor can I. I believe that it does violate international law.

Some say that Serbia can not live together in peace with Albanians, Moslims in general. Then please tell me why there is a Mosque in the center of Belgrade that nobody pays attention to. I have come to know Serbia in a different way. This country is full of acceptance but it can not except the fact that land that has been a part of Serbia for centries has been taken from them and this under the eyes of the UN and EU. This move only adds to the instability of the region and not the stability. Adding to the stability would have come from PRODUCTIVE talks with all sides.

Hugh --- you have some way to go to learn from Dave, aren't you?

As for perception, just tell me the views of New Yorkers after 9/11 towards you know whom?
Guantanamo? need to name more?